D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[Charlaquin]

In my game, I changed the rule so that all melee weapons key from Strength. Both monks and melee-type rogues are encouraged to invest heavily in Strength.

But I've also made numerous other changes, to the relevant class abilities, such that doing so is not too much of a burden.

I would be very interested in hearing about these changes you've made, if you're of a mind to share them.

 

[Immortal Sun]

If by "Always" you mean "since 3rd edition." Dexterity being the god-stat and Wisdom being a nonsense hodgepodge of things are both products of the unification of the task resolution system tying every task to one of the 6 abilities. Dexterity took over every physical task that wasn't obviously based on direct application of force and Wisdom did the equivalent for mental tasks. Charisma was already the only social stat, but it did have its applications somewhat broadened by the change as well.

Okay, "always" for the last 3 editions for nearly 20 years.

 

[Caliburn101]

Yes, I know... this topic has been treated over and over again, yet... I'm trying to play, and appreciate, D&D 5th ed. using Rules As Written. At the moment, D&D 5th ed is my go-to-game for Fantasy Settings and Campaigns, nevertheless I've got some problem with some of its rules.

I think the Dexterity is simply too important and too good as a Stat in this game: it influences Initiative, AC (with light and medium armor), saving throws and ability/skill checks, and damage dealt with ranged and finesse weapons. Maybe a little too much...: in the campaign I'm running as a DM, the party features two fighters, and both of them are elves, dex based fighters, studded leather armor, with bow, rapier and shield.

I'm too lazy and I don't like tinkering with the rules too much, but I feel the need of doing something about this: my ideas are
1) removing the rapier as a weapon - but I don't like this at all
2) renaming the rapier as "broadsword" as in AiME, just for the flavor of a medieval setting, but it doesn't solve the problem of Dex being unbalanced as a Stat
3) removing the "finesse" quality from the rapier, and giving it the "light" quality, so as to allow two weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger or a shortsword
4) toning down the damage die of the rapier from d8 to d6
5) modifying the official rule, and stating that you use Strength to determine the bonus to damage even with finesse weapons: if you want to use Dexterity to determine the bonus damage with finesse weapons, maybe you have to select a specific, homebrew Feat (maybe called Agile Fighter?) that allows you to do so.
What do you think?
Are Dex and rapier/finesse weapons a bug or a problem in your games and campaigns? If so, how do you handle it?
Many many thanks!

1) My advice would be to do it - rapiers didn't cross over with longswords much historically and are complete rubbish at penetrating any half decent medieval armour
2) 'Broadswords' were big weapons - in no way analogous to rapiers - they were strength based all the way (as the system would see it)
3) Never heard of twin rapier fighting - do this - it is reasonable
4) Also very reasonable - a shortsword can do just as much damage as a rapier, if not a little more
5) Also reasonable - but Agile Fighter should perhaps be a fighting style

Rapiers are ridiculously powerful in 5th Ed. compared to their historical analogues. For some that's ok - but I am with you on this, they don't fit very well alongside full plate armour or the idea that they do the same damage as a battle axe in the hands of a big beefy character with a strong physique.

 

[5ekyu]

We have not had a problem with it. The d8 rapier is not light, so you give up twf unless/until you take a feat. It's an avg of 1pt.

We dont sweat it and it doesn't cause a problem. The rapier and finesse are not gonna outdo strength fighter or archers with the right feats.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I did my own homebrew equipment list for a martial only D&D game...

Simple Melee Weapons
Club 3 cp 1d4 bludgeoning 2 lb. Light
Chain 6 sp 1d4 bludgeoning 5 lb. Reach, two handed
Hatchet 10 sp 1d6 slashing 2 lb. Light, thrown (range 20/60)
Javelin 11 cp 1d6 piercing 2 lb. Thrown (range 30/120)
Knife 5 sp 1d4 piercing 1 lb. Finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)
Hammer 4 sp 1d4 bludgeoning 2 lb. Light, thrown (range 20/60)
Mace 12 sp 1d6 bludgeoning 4 lb. —
Quarterstaff 25 cp 1d6 bludgeoning 4 lb. Versatile (1d8)
Sickle 2 sp 1d4 slashing 2 lb.
Light Spear 2 sp 1d6 piercing 3 lb. Thrown (range 20/60), versatile (1d8)
War Fan 25 sp 2lbs 1d4 slashing finesse, light, special (if you are prof in martial weapons as a reaction you can use the war fan defensively to gain +1 to your AC, if you do you cannot attack with that war fan on your next turn)
Unarmed strike — 1 bludgeoning Finesse

Simple Ranged Weapons
Akuni 3 cp 1/12 lbs 0 piercing light, thrown 20/60
Boomerang 15 cp 1/5 lbs 1d4 bludgeoning finesse, light, thrown 20/60 special (if you miss with a thrown attack make a dex check DC12 if you succeed it returns to your hand, if you are prof in martial weapons add your prof to this check)
Crossbow, light 1 gp 1d8 piercing 5 lb. Ammunition (range 80/320), loading, two-handed
Dart 3 cp 1d4 piercing 1/4 lb. Finesse, thrown (range 20/60)
Shortbow 50 sp 1d6 piercing 2 lb. Ammunition (range 80/320), two-handed
Sling 5 cp 1d4 bludgeoning — Ammunition (range 30/120)

Martial Melee Weapons
Arming Sword 75 sp 1d8 piercing 2 lb. Finesse
Battleaxe 30 sp 1d8 slashing 4 lb. Versatile (1d10)
Flail 30 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 2 lb. —
Glaive 50 sp 1d10 slashing 6 lb. Heavy, reach, two-handed
Greataxe 90 sp 1d12 slashing 7 lb. Heavy, two-handed
Greatspear 45sp 1d10 piercing 5lb. Heavy, reach, versatile (1d12)
Greatsword 1 gp 2d6 slashing 6 lb. Heavy, two-handed
Halberd 50 sp 1d10 slashing 6 lb. Heavy, reach, two-handed
Kopesh 45sp 2d4 slashing 4lb. Heavy
Lance 25 sp 1d12 piercing 6 lb. Reach, special
Longsword 50 sp 1d8 slashing 3 lb. Versatile (1d10)
Maul 30 sp 2d6 bludgeoning 10 lb. Heavy, two-handed
Morningstar 45 sp 1d8 piercing 4 lb. —
Scimitar 70 sp 1d6 slashing 2 lb. Finesse, light
Shortsword 30 sp 1d6 piercing 2 lb. Finesse, light
Trident 15 sp 1d6 piercing 4 lb. Thrown (range 20/60), versatile (1d8)
War Pick 15 sp 1d8 piercing 2 lb. —
Warhammer 40 sp 1d8 bludgeoning 2 lb. Heavy, Versatile (1d10)
Whip 6 sp 1d4 slashing 3 lb. Finesse, reach

Martial Ranged Weapons
Crossbow, hand 3 gp 1d6 piercing 3 lb. Ammunition (range 30/120), light, loading Crossbow, heavy 2 gp 1d10 piercing 18 lb. Ammunition (range 100/400), heavy, loading, two-handed
Longbow 2 gp 1d8 piercing 2 lb. Ammunition (range 150/600), heavy, two-handed

Ammunition
Arrows (20) 3 sp 1 lb.
Crossbow bolts (20) 3 sp 1 1/2 lb.
Sling bullets (20) 1 cp 1 1/2 lb.




so my Arming Sword is a finesse d8 weapon, and I add a 1 handed Kopesh that has HEAVY... I also add finesse to unarmed strikes


edit: Ignore the prices, that game world is a silver economy
100 Copper pennies equal 1 silver (100cp= 4cq=1sp)
1 Copper quarter is worth 25 copper pennies
100 Silver pennies equal 1 gold (100sp= 4sq=1gp)

So, everything is a silver economy. A silver Penny or a silver Quarter (25sp) are the normal of the world.

However, some people use 1lb trade bars (especially common in the Highlands) that are worth 100 pennies or 4 quarters... so 1 copper trade bar is the same as a silver penny.

 

[Gladius Legis]

DEX is an overpowered stat in 5e, but the rapier is much less significant than a lot of symptoms of this. Ranged combat in general is far more of a problem.

Making STR the only stat that can ever apply to weapon damage (melee AND ranged) does go a long way toward solving this.

 

[Cyber-Dave]

If you strictly enforce encumbrance, Str becomes much more important...

 

[Volund]

I wouldn't change anything that reduces the abilities/effectiveness of current PC's in an ongoing campaign that were built with the PHB rules. That's hard to pull off without the players feeling like you are retaliating against them for being good at what they wanted to be good at. I have played/DM'd in campaigns where we changed or limited PHB rules but these changes were always done at the beginning so everyone could agree. Instead I would make changes behind the DM curtain and let their PC's continue as is. For example, instead of changing rapiers from d8 to d6, a net change of 1 hp per attack, just give every monster an extra 3-4 hp. They'll never know the difference. Or send a lot of strong monsters against them. The orcs shove them prone and the ogres club them with advantage. Extra nasty if there is a shaman to give the shovers guidance, or to hex the PC's strength checks. Pits and chasms are an easy way to make Dex-based PC's sad. You dumped STR and only have an 8? Here is a 10 ft pit to jump across. What are their wisdom scores? Throw some WIS saves at them. Personally I've found heavily armored, high strength characters to be a lot more troublesome to challenge in combat than dex-based fighters. As a DM I'd rather deal with rapier-wielders in melee than greatsword GWM barbarians.

 

[ccs]

Switch it to Finesse = Dex mod to hit only.
Remove the Dex bonus from damage.

 

[ad_hoc]

Many environmental challenges call for strength.

Str = heavy armour
Dex = everything else

I think that is working as intended.

If I were to make changes I would:

1. Remove any ability score bonus to initiative (initiative bonuses are less important than people think, but it's still a clean and simple thing to do)
2. Improve thrown weapons