D&D 5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

That's news to me, considering 2E's Deities & Demigods, Faith & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, Die Vecna Die!, 3E's Age of Worms et al. And at least the 3E versions of those deity books and as recent as Rime of the Frostmaiden.

In 2e the god stats were very specifically only for their avatars. They never provided stats for the true gods, which were noted to be much more powerful.

The post you responded to didn’t discuss 3e, 4e, or 5e

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I really want to find all these benches and parking barriers that can throw people into extra-dimensional spaces and rule planes in defiance of the gods themselves.

And 'force of nature' is one of those phrases I associate with people talking about how Batman can beat God if he had time to prepare.

It surprising how you continue to miss the point. But you keep being you man!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

See, that's the deal and why I know it's bad writing:

The titular Masquerade of Vampire: the Masquerade is fine. There's a reason it's in place in-universe that makes sense and also incentivizes the player character to play ball.

Paradox is just an arbitrary punishment there to act as sad duct tape for the plot holes the writers couldn't be assed to actually close up. Just a sharp stick to poke the players with if they get out of line.

This just gets worse when you make that loadbearing concept into a person and then make the world treat them like the ultimate badass who gets to tell you what you can and can't do with no recourse, no slapping them in their smug faces, now throwing them down and reveling in their ruin, not even flipping them off and calling them a few choice names -- the world just says 'no, you lose and they win forever, lol'.

I disagree about Paradox. It's function is to explain why the magic is confined to a hidden world, rather than Mage being a full on superheroes game, which is what it becomes the second mortals aren't around. Moreover, without paradox, why isn't the world a complete mage-ocracy? Why does it even slightly resemble our world? It's fine if you want to run a magic superhero game, but at that point it's no longer Mage: The Acension, it's Wahoo Magic: 24/7.

What is it that you specifically can't do in Placescape by her presence? I get crappy DM's exist, but this really is a case where if you weren't being thwarted by the LOP you'd be slapped down by another god if the DM disapproved.

LOP exists to maintain certain aspects of the status quo. This helps make the setting more than the god on god megabrawl it would devolve into without an arbitrary force keeping them out and the city reasonably safe enough for level 1 berks to go kill some cranium rats in a tavern basement. The only thing she really stops is someone intentionally trying to destroy the setting. But then who shows up to a Planescape game with the intent of destroying Sigil and not interacting with the basic premise of the world? I mean, other than Monte Cook! Ba dum tss!

LOP is as much a person as the Force is in Star Wars, which acts as a karmic balance in the Star Wars RPG too. I've never seen anyone show up to play Star Wars and want to kill the force, but I guess there's a first time for everything.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It surprising how you continue to miss the point. But you keep being you man!

The point is that she doesn't do anything but holds the setting together, but not through all the stuff she's known for apparently.

Oooor the point is rabid fandom.

 

[Maxperson]

I really want to find all these benches and parking barriers that can throw people into extra-dimensional spaces and rule planes in defiance of the gods themselves.

There are two on the Third Heaven about half a million miles past the Ocean of Pure Joy.

You're still missing the point. She's just lore unless you decide to threaten Sigil with destruction somehow. If you don't plan on disrupting the campaign to the point of its destruction(it's centered on Sigil), then she's never anything you have to worry about.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I disagree about Paradox. It's why the magic is confined to a hidden world, rather than Mage being a full on superheroes game, which is what it becomes the second mortals aren't around. Moreover, without paradox, why isn't the world a complete mage-ocracy? Why does it even slightly resemble our world? It's fine if you want to run a magic superhero game, but at that point it's no longer Mage: The Acension, it's Wahoo Magic: 24/7.

I get that Paradox exists because WoD was sad that people were playing Vampire the fun way being Matrix with fangs instead of being tortured souls, tormented by being awesome superbeasts. They should have tried writing a reason for the setting to be that way instead of a block of radioactive handwavium.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The point is that she doesn't do anything but holds the setting together, but not through all the stuff she's known for apparently.

Oooor the point is rabid fandom.

I’m not a fan, but clearly you are (or whatever the term for the opposite of that is).

 

[Maxperson]

The point is that she doesn't do anything but holds the setting together, but not through all the stuff she's known for apparently.

All the stuff she is known for is just............................lore as far as the PCs are concerned.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You're still missing the point. She's just lore unless you decide to threaten Sigil with destruction somehow. If you don't plan on disrupting the campaign to the point of its destruction(it's centered on Sigil), then she's never anything you have to worry about.

Everyone arguing for her are basically just saying they like that funciton.

I am saying I don't respect the presentation of the function as being in the form of an arbitrarily powerful being in the setting.

 

[Maxperson]

Everyone arguing for her are basically just saying they like that funciton.

I am saying I don't respect the presentation of the function as being in the form of an arbitrarily powerful being in the setting.

What's the difference between it being a being that makes it so you cannot threaten Sigil, and Sigil just being supernaturally too strong to destroy(and shunts threats into a cut off extradimensional space by reflex) and able to "magically" keep gods out?