D&D 5E 5e: Stat the Lady of Pain...so we can overthrow her

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I get that Paradox exists because WoD was sad that people were playing Vampire the fun way being Matrix with fangs instead of being tortured souls, tormented by being awesome superbeasts. They should have tried writing a reason for the setting to be that way instead of a block of radioactive handwavium.

If not paradox, what reason would you accept for keeping Mage Mage? You could just ignore it, but then it's not exactly Mage anymore and you need to explain why the world isn't all gonzo magic. Or make it all gonzo magic and but then it's even less like Mage. Or ignore the ramifications entirely, but then you get into the Reed Richards is Useless, where the world is exactly like ours except for godlike superbeings which cause no downstream effects for some reason.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What's the difference between it being a being that makes it so you cannot threaten Sigil, and Sigil just being supernaturally too strong to destroy(and shunts threats into a cut off extradimensional space by reflex) and able to "magically" keep gods out?

That alternative would also be pretty bad. Rule 1 is no arbitrary infinite power.

There's other ways to achieve this effect aside from saying 'no'.

There could be some kind of pact among the big players of the universe, maybe as a bastion against bigger, worse things.

It could be the plug on a direct gate tot he Far Realms.

It could be the literal lynchpin on the Wheel and someone shifting it from it's null state kills everyone from it flying apart.

It could be one of the apparently billions of god corpses in the astral sea, only this was a bloke everyone liked.

It could be where the reeealy cute puppies live.

Anything but being protected by pure Nintiesmetaplotonium.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If not paradox, what reason would you accept for keeping Mage Mage? You could just ignore it, but then it's not exactly Mage anymore and you need to explain why the world isn't all gonzo magic.

Using bigger magic let's other things use bigger magic: the Faries, the Wyrm, Sam Haight, etc.

Or if you use too much magic, you have to play a session of Wraith. Problem solved.

 

[Maxperson]

That alternative would also be pretty bad. Rule 1 is no arbitrary infinite power.

There's other ways to achieve this effect aside from saying 'no'.

This is a true dichotomy. Either you can destroy Sigil and with it the setting, or you can't. Preventing the destruction = no.

There could be some kind of pact among the big players of the universe, maybe as a bastion against bigger, worse things.

Evil breaks pacts. This does not keep the setting from being destroyed.

It could be the plug on a direct gate tot he Far Realms.

How does that keep the setting from being destroyed?

It could be the literal lynchpin on the Wheel and someone shifting it from it's null state kills everyone from it flying apart.

Being destroyed and killing everyone does not keep the setting from being destroyed.

It could be one of the apparently billions of god corpses in the astral sea, only this was a bloke everyone liked.

This is even less likely to succeed than a pact. Everyone, including gods of hatred, disease, betrayal, etc. liked this guy?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That alternative would also be pretty bad. Rule 1 is no arbitrary infinite power.

There's other ways to achieve this effect aside from saying 'no'.

There could be some kind of pact among the big players of the universe, maybe as a bastion against bigger, worse things.

It could be the plug on a direct gate tot he Far Realms.

It could be the literal lynchpin on the Wheel and someone shifting it from it's null state kills everyone from it flying apart.

It could be one of the apparently billions of god corpses in the astral sea, only this was a bloke everyone liked.

It could be where the reeealy cute puppies live.

Anything but being protected by pure Nintiesmetaplotonium.

I really don't see a difference between LOP and the rest of them. Those are all similar hand wavium that wouldn't hold up to to the scrutiny you require from the LOP's existence*. Like the gods pact - you really going to tell me that Jerky McJerkface, the god of lies and betrayal is going to honor that? What's the penalty for breaking it? Why hasnt it been done already? That's about as limiting as the LOP. Or the Far Realms plug. OK, I want to be a GOO cultist. DM, tell me what I need to do to unleash Azathoth! Or I want to break the wheel. And if I can accomplish this, why hasn't it been done already by the multitude of entities in the universe vastly more powerful than the party in the countless years before we were on the scene?


*Except the puppies one. That one tracks.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Or if you use too much magic, you have to play a session of Wraith. Problem solved.

Ooof, harsh man!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Evil breaks pacts. This does not keep the setting from being destroyed.

Evil liked not dying.

How does that keep the setting from being destroyed?

Because no non-cultist in the universe want to deal with Lovecraft's leavings.

Being destroyed and killing everyone does not keep the setting from being destroyed.

People tend not to like dying. I don't understand why this is a difficult prospect.

This is even less likely to succeed than a pact. Everyone, including gods of hatred, disease, betrayal, etc. liked this guy?

1) Yeah. he was the god of amicability.
2) Why would having disease in your portfolio make you dislike people? You're the god of protecting and nurturing the tiniest of being, those looked down on and reviled by everyone.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ooof, harsh man!

But true.

I really don't see a difference between LOP and the rest of them. Those are all similar hand wavium that wouldn't hold up to to the scrutiny you require from the LOP's existence*.

Because it's not an infinitely powerful being or object it's an in-universe solution involving existing concepts and motivations and not the author's hand wholly visible and saying 'no'.

Like the gods pact - you really going to tell me that Jerky McJerkface, the god of lies and betrayal is going to honor that? What's the penalty for breaking it?

I'm not going to write the whole thing for a setting I don't even like. There would be a reason the pact was needed or a benefit even Jerky prefers to breaking it.

Or the Far Realms plug. OK, I want to be a GOO cultist. DM, tell me what I need to do to unleash Azathoth!

Your god is stuck on the other side of the plug and you're on this side with everyone who doesn't want that to happen.

Or I want to break the wheel.

Good.

And if I can accomplish this, why hasn't it been done already by the multitude of entities in the universe vastly more powerful than the party in the countless years before we were on the scene?

Most being in the multiverse are smarter than PCs.

*Except the puppies one. That one tracks.

New lore.

Sigil is protected by the presence of the Great Shelter. The LoP is just an attendant so named because she trains the hellhound pups without a bite suit.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

It could be the literal lynchpin on the Wheel and someone shifting it from it's null state kills everyone from it flying apart.

Perhaps you are not aware, but that is the lore of Sigil and the LoP.

So it is ok with you after all?

It seems to me that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the LoP and Sigil.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It seems to me that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the LoP and Sigil.

Stop. Saying. This. If. You. Aren't. Going. To. Elaborate.

And you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my objection to the LoP. Being a lynchpin is fine. Being a special creator's pet who is powerful because we say so is not.