Almost every fantasy show is trying to be D&D or Game of Thrones

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, let's explore this - why are these writers with no credentials being hired to write these very expensive shows and little to no script-supervision being done by those who are producing. It feels like these writers are just activists with no actual writing potential and have been purposefully placed given that people at the top are happy to burn money.

Now it is all well and good to blame it on cocaine but for some of us that doesn't pass the sniff test, particularly when it is not happening just in fantasy but also in the sci-fi genre as well as the superhero genre. It is like Hollywood is overflowing with garbage writers who are happily getting hired. Nobody knows anyone with talent anymore?

More content is being produced right now than at any time in film or television history, due to the (now-ending) streaming wars.

That means they're going to be bringing in a lot of people with less experience, because there's more work than there are experienced people.

 

[billd91]

I think for a lot of people it comes down to "new characters of various ethnicities" vs "changing existing characters to become new ethnicities"

And this comes back to the "lazy writing" argument. Having various ethnicities represented by characters is a good thing, but is there any reason we can't create new characters...why do we have to change existing ones?

For example, changing Ariel from white to black just seems weird....aka why are we doing this? Versus having some of the dwarves in middle earth be black, or having a black elf....that seems perfectly fine to me, they are new characters that aren't really established before, lets go!

Same argument for James Bond, we don't need a female James Bond we need a cool female spy story. Atomic Blond was a great one to me, she was a badass spy that was sexy as hell, but not James Bond, she was her own thing.

James Bond is an interesting example since he is one of those franchise character where they've proved that you can change the actor and modify the character's approach to various issues and do so successfully. But how far can they change the character? Can they give him (or her) a non-white ethnic background like South Asian or African?

As far as changing the ethnicity/race of an established superhero character, whether moving that name from one person (Peter Parker) to another (Miles Morales) or via adaptation from comic to movie (Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm) - it's no secret that a lot of comic writers from the Golden and Silver Ages wrote in much of their own backgrounds and experiences and things they were fans of into their creations. And they reflect an overwhelmingly white and male experience. Why should current versions of those characters be limited to the same social segment? Why can't they be tailored to capture a broader market of readers/viewers who like to be able to project themselves into the art as well?

 

[AnotherGuy]

Its an interesting question. I think the simple truth is for a while hollywood sincerely believed that a star studded cast with an amazing effects budget completely outdid the need for a good script. But with the lashback in the last few years maybe that will change. When you have movies with the budgets of small countries, it would seem really prudent to shell out a bit more cash to get a talented writer to write your script.

Stalker0 this is not some new phenomenon Hollywood just learnt. They've been making movies for 100 years.
There have been plenty of star-studded failures. Batman and Robin was oozing star-power.

Just compare the scripts between Basic Instinct and Sliver. Writing has always been important, everyone knows that, from long ago.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Wait...is Bond still hyper nationalistic and sleeping with all the women to then abandon/dump them and they get murdered? If not, how is this character Bond?!

They're not making a female Bond. The producers have been very clear about this. This is a bad faith boogeyman (or boogeywoman) culture warriors put out there to try and pull people over to their side.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

For example, changing Ariel from white to black just seems weird....aka why are we doing this?

The director has said loudly and repeatedly that she was the best actress who auditioned for the role.

Also, very few green and blue actresses showed up to play the mermaid.

 

[Stalker0]

Galadriel should be tougher than Legolas and they establish in the first episode of Rings of Power that she's been fighting orcs for centuries.

I agree. While I had some beefs with aspects of RoP, this was never one of them. Galadriel is established as a long standing warrior that has been killing orcs longer than some of the mountains around you have stood. And she's one of the early generation elves, and in Tolkien everything early is just plain stronger. She should be utterly dominant in most fights.

I can respect the argument of "how does this galadriel become the more serene lady we see in LoTR", and to me that's one of the things the story should show me over time....but I have no issue with her being awesome at the beginning.

Rey is just as good at stuff as Luke is, but no one questions why he's able to fly a fighter jet, outfly professional pilots and be almost the lone survivor of a suicide mission. He's just a dude and associated with your childhood memories.

So the real issue with Rey is not only is she badass (for seemingly no reason but its a fair critique that luke is a pretty great pilot without training himself), but she also never really has a big challenge or issue to overcome in her main story. Luke in the first movie lost both of his adopted parents and Obi Wan, and then in the second movie suffers several more setbacks and losses. In comparison Rey just kind of keeps getting stronger and winning, she never really suffers much in the way of setbacks. That's the main beef people had with her.

 

[Mannahnin]

Well, let's explore this - why are these writers with no credentials being hired to write these very expensive shows and little to no script-supervision being done by those who are producing. It feels like these writers are just activists with no actual writing potential and have been purposefully placed given that people at the top are happy to burn money.

Now it is all well and good to blame it on cocaine but for some of us that doesn't pass the sniff test, particularly when it is not happening just in fantasy but also in the sci-fi genre as well as the superhero genre. It is like Hollywood is overflowing with garbage writers who are happily getting hired. Nobody knows anyone with talent anymore?

Its an interesting question. I think the simple truth is for a while hollywood sincerely believed that a star studded cast with an amazing effects budget completely outdid the need for a good script. But with the lashback in the last few years maybe that will change. When you have movies with the budgets of small countries, it would seem really prudent to shell out a bit more cash to get a talented writer to write your script.

I understand, and another recent thread we had dug into this with examples, that Hollywood runs principally on relationships.

Combine that with the facts that

a) Traditionally writers are seen as some of the most disposable and inessential personnel in the moviemaking business
and
b) People are constantly trying to break into the business, and writing a screenplay "on spec" is actually a concept

And despite my personal belief that good writing is the single most important factor in a good movie or show, it seems like this is a question with a pretty simple answer. There is a ton of supply, most of it is junk, and personal relationships are a bigger factor in who gets hired than who's actually the best writer.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So the real issue with Rey is not only is she badass (for seemingly no reason but its a fair critique that luke is a pretty great pilot without training himself), but she also never really has a big challenge or issue to overcome in her main story. Luke in the first movie lost both of his adopted parents and Obi Wan, and then in the second movie suffers several more setbacks and losses. In comparison Rey just kind of keeps getting stronger and winning, she never really suffers much in the way of setbacks. That's the main beef people had with her.

Come on, that's not the main beef people had with her.

And in any case, pointing to her as a singular issue with the writing of the sequel trilogy means ignoring 90% of the sequel trilogy.

 

[Stalker0]

Also, very few green and blue actresses showed up to play the mermaid.

Ariel isn't green or blue. She's a white redhead with a green tail and big blue eyes.

 

[Ryujin]

I completely agree with you, I just think the conversation doesn't have to stop there. Re-framing the OP, I would ask: what tropes are we seeing codified in current fantasy shows? And how we deal with diversity is a big part of that. 20 years from now when we rewatch GoT and see Yara Greyjoy, will we celebrate her as a breakthrough LGBTQ character in a fantasy show? Or will we look back and say "Meh, just another stereotypical 20XX fantasy lesbian warrior."

Remember that the "black partner" trope you're talking about was celebrated as adding diversity when it was considered novel. We can always do better. Identifying what's recycled and what's actually innovative in our current shows is a good way to check ourselves.

"Shaft" was innovative, though seen as Blacksploitation now. Lt. Uhura in Star Trek was innovative, as can be seen by how much influence she had on a generation of Blacks in the sciences. "Black (or Hispanic) partner dies" was such a trope that it feels like it appeared in half the cop shows and movies of the '70s. So much so that as a white kid, it pretty much slapped me in the face. Admittedly, though, I was growing up living in one of the most ethnically diverse areas of Toronto, at that time, and my grade 3 class looked like a United Nations session.