Almost every fantasy show is trying to be D&D or Game of Thrones

[billd91]

Now it’s subpar acting where every fantasy woman is Legolas and zero personality ( daisy ridley)That’s great if all the male characters don’t look like complete idiots next to that character. We have just reversed what they did in the 70’s etc. as a poster said below I’m sick of my friends identity being the first killed. Now it’s the opposite.

beep beep beep goes the big dump truck with a heaping load of BS to dump in the thread beep beep beep

 

[Deset Gled]

That's American pop culture in general. Unless they're being played for broad comedy (Will & Grace), American audiences are generally kind of spooked by male gay relationships. Lesbians are titillating, by comparison. Dumb but true.

I believe this is true in general, but it's interesting to look at how it changes across genres. For example, I would posit that there are more (and more central) lesbian couples in fantasy shows in the past few years, where gay male couples are more prominent in major US sitcoms (Modern Family, Brooklyn 99, Schitt's Creek, etc).

I'm just glad that we are actually having shows/movies built around non-white, non cis major characters. The cop's black partner doesn't always die to fuel the white cop's need for revenge. The group doesn't only have that one "fabulous" friend who makes the occasional witty comment, then fades into the background again. My friends can now see themselves represented, on screen.

I completely agree with you, I just think the conversation doesn't have to stop there. Re-framing the OP, I would ask: what tropes are we seeing codified in current fantasy shows? And how we deal with diversity is a big part of that. 20 years from now when we rewatch GoT and see Yara Greyjoy, will we celebrate her as a breakthrough LGBTQ character in a fantasy show? Or will we look back and say "Meh, just another stereotypical 20XX fantasy lesbian warrior."

Remember that the "black partner" trope you're talking about was celebrated as adding diversity when it was considered novel. We can always do better. Identifying what's recycled and what's actually innovative in our current shows is a good way to check ourselves.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I definitely think there are shows that get "overtly preachy" but the vast majority of bad shows are bad because....their bad. Lazy writing, poor characterization, bloated budgets that don't return on the investment, you name it.

Well, let's explore this - why are these writers with no credentials being hired to write these very expensive shows and little to no script-supervision being done by those who are producing. It feels like these writers are just activists with no actual writing potential and have been purposefully placed given that people at the top are happy to burn money.

Now it is all well and good to blame it on cocaine but for some of us that doesn't pass the sniff test, particularly when it is not happening just in fantasy but also in the sci-fi genre as well as the superhero genre. It is like Hollywood is overflowing with garbage writers who are happily getting hired. Nobody knows anyone with talent anymore?

 

[Ryujin]

Can we all agree that fantasy shows peaked with "Kröd Mändoon and the Flaming Sword of Fire"?

Indeed. I managed to track down a DVD of the show, a couple of years back, and added it to my collection. May your gourd never be empty

 

[billd91]

I believe this is true in general, but it's interesting to look at how it changes across genres. For example, I would posit that there are more (and more central) lesbian couples in fantasy shows in the past few years, where gay male couples are more prominent in major US sitcoms (Modern Family, Brooklyn 99, Schitt's Creek, etc).

Could be interesting to analyze. Are fantasy fanboys more reactionary about perceived threats to their masculinity than sitcom watchers?
Or is it OK that gay males are more acceptable subjects of comedy tropes?

 

[Stalker0]

But it can be really hard to discuss those things in a meaningful way when the discussion grinds to a halt at "ZOMG ethnicity is changing!"

I think for a lot of people it comes down to "new characters of various ethnicities" vs "changing existing characters to become new ethnicities"

And this comes back to the "lazy writing" argument. Having various ethnicities represented by characters is a good thing, but is there any reason we can't create new characters...why do we have to change existing ones?

For example, changing Ariel from white to black just seems weird....aka why are we doing this? Versus having some of the dwarves in middle earth be black, or having a black elf....that seems perfectly fine to me, they are new characters that aren't really established before, lets go!

Same argument for James Bond, we don't need a female James Bond we need a cool female spy story. Atomic Blond was a great one to me, she was a badass spy that was sexy as hell, but not James Bond, she was her own thing.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well on wheel of time they basically looked like they came from a gap commercial. Modern hair and clothing at times that could be worn in modern times

The show is largely incoherent, but it occasionally makes nods to the fact that it takes place after the current day and that everything is cyclical.

That said, the art design is incredibly lazy. The nomadic people in the wagons apparently have irons and washing machines, since everything looks brand-new.

This doesn't appear to be a stance so much as everyone connected with the show other than Rosamund Pike appears to be completely incompetent.

The problem is these shows are trying to run on 70’s television and it doesn’t work.

I have no idea what "70's television" means in this sentence.

That’s great if they earn it. That’s great if the acting is good and the directing is good. Sigoutney weaver earned it in aliens, Sarah Conner in terminator, neve Campbell in scream and Lena headley in got are examples.
Now it’s subpar acting where every fantasy woman is Legolas and zero personality ( daisy ridley)That’s great if all the male characters don’t look like complete idiots next to that character. We have just reversed what they did in the 70’s etc. as a poster said below I’m sick of my friends identity being the first killed. Now it’s the opposite.

This is a bad take.

First off, if all of these female characters you like just happen to have appeared in stuff in your youth, rose-tinted glasses are a big part of what's happening to you, as it is to anyone.

Galadriel should be tougher than Legolas and they establish in the first episode of Rings of Power that she's been fighting orcs for centuries.

Rey is just as good at stuff as Luke is, but no one questions why he's able to fly a fighter jet, outfly professional pilots and be almost the lone survivor of a suicide mission. He's just a dude and associated with your childhood memories.

And I'm sorry it upsets you that white guys are dying before black dudes and women in movies. Imagine what if it was like that for you for decades. But it's hardly a consistent thing -- the first characters to die nowadays are a random grab bag, as they should be.

 

[Stalker0]

Well, let's explore this - why are these writers with no credentials being hired to write these very expensive shows and little to no script-supervision being done by those who are producing.

Its an interesting question. I think the simple truth is for a while hollywood sincerely believed that a star studded cast with an amazing effects budget completely outdid the need for a good script. But with the lashback in the last few years maybe that will change. When you have movies with the budgets of small countries, it would seem really prudent to shell out a bit more cash to get a talented writer to write your script.

 

[Scribe]

Same argument for James Bond, we don't need a female James Bond we need a cool female spy story.

Wait...is Bond still hyper nationalistic and sleeping with all the women to then abandon/dump them and they get murdered? If not, how is this character Bond?!

 

[Mannahnin]

And this comes back to the "lazy writing" argument. Having various ethnicities represented by characters is a good thing, but is there any reason we can't create new characters...why do we have to change existing ones?

For the same reason they make tons of sequels. Using an existing IP with an existing fanbase is seen as a safer bet. Tweaking them a little so it's not a pure retread of previous iterations is a logical thing.

For example, changing Ariel from white to black just seems weird....aka why are we doing this?

What relevance does her ethnicity have to the story? She's a pure fantasy character. The first Disney version had a Greek god dad and a Jamaican sidekick. It's not like they were trying to be representative of or faithful to a specific folklore or culture in the first place.

I can see wanting some fidelity to the background and demographics of a character where and when it's actually relevant to that character, though.