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D&D (2024) Smite Changes

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Where you really didn't manage to say that clearly in your previous two replies.

You were also focusing on this being a problem with a specific scenario of players using this on an unarmed attack while being shackled as prisoners, whereas it seems that what you're actually objecting to is the way that paladins, battle masters, monks and probably a few other classes have been functioning since 5e was released.
A poorly designed ability can have multiple problems. Those problems need not be intertwined in a way that makes them all simultaneously relevant to any given example.
@James Gasik 2014 phb's smite is also badly designed
Video set to shield spell section's timestamp
l I'd be surprised if it doesn't get removed or have a significant rework when we see it.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
Of course both force OAs. But if I force an OA, I can as well move back 30ft and not attack with disadvantage.
So you effectively add a non penalty, as shooing from melee is always the inferior option.
I would argue that having to take an OA from shooting a ranged weapon is a much bigger penalty than having disadvantage on the attack in the majority of cases.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
And an ability can be not to your taste without being poorly designed. It bothers you, it's never bothered me in close to a decade of playing and DMing for paladins.
It's not simply a matter of preference or "opinion". it's poorly designed because it creates a perversion of the gameplay loop where a player changes or waits to declare their action with a retcon after seeing the result & I've explained that previously. The fact that you are ignoring that in order to dismissively reframe it as a mere matter of preference & opinion speaks volumes about the indefensibility of that design.
 

MarkB

Legend
It's not simply a matter of preference or "opinion". it's poorly designed because it creates a perversion of the gameplay loop where a player changes or waits to declare their action with a retcon after seeing the result & I've explained that previously. The fact that you are ignoring that in order to dismissively reframe it as a mere matter of preference & opinion speaks volumes about the indefensibility of that design.
No, it speaks volumes about how insignificant a 'perversion' I consider it to be. It is something that fundamentally offends your sensibilities, but doesn't bother me. That's pretty much the definition of personal preference.
 

I would argue that having to take an OA from shooting a ranged weapon is a much bigger penalty than having disadvantage on the attack in the majority of cases.

It takes away choice. Shooting in melee is never an option then. You can just move back and shoot from distance. You can as well say, you can't shoot in melee at all and it is the same penalty, as moving away in most cases is an option.

With new grapple rules, enemies with one hand free can try to grab you on their opportunity attack and stop you from moving away. But at that point, you try to move away. Enemies grab you and you are free to shoot, as their opportunity attack is wasted for the grab. Without the disadvantage on attack, opportunity attack on ranged attacks are quite useles...

... but actually, I did also suggest that on top of disadvantage on their attack, shooters grant advantage against all melee oponents until the start of theor next turn. So shooting against melee oponents, if you can't keep the distance has a real penalty.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
It takes away choice. Shooting in melee is never an option then. You can just move back and shoot from distance. You can as well say, you can't shoot in melee at all and it is the same penalty, as moving away in most cases is an option.

With new grapple rules, enemies with one hand free can try to grab you on their opportunity attack and stop you from moving away. But at that point, you try to move away. Enemies grab you and you are free to shoot, as their opportunity attack is wasted for the grab. Without the disadvantage on attack, opportunity attack on ranged attacks are quite useles...

... but actually, I did also suggest that on top of disadvantage on their attack, shooters grant advantage against all melee oponents until the start of theor next turn. So shooting against melee oponents, if you can't keep the distance has a real penalty.
I also suggested that range shooters grant advantage to melee opponents as above.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
No, it speaks volumes about how insignificant a 'perversion' I consider it to be. It is something that fundamentally offends your sensibilities, but doesn't bother me. That's pretty much the definition of personal preference.
Even if that were accepted for purposes of discussion, the reasons behind preference are far more valuable than the preference itself. Do you truly have no reasons more developed than "it doesn't bother me" for your rather outspoken support of this particular design element?

I think we can all probably agree that one d&d should probably aim for a target slightly higher than "it doesn't bother me" in all things
 

MarkB

Legend
Even if that were accepted for purposes of discussion, the reasons behind preference are far more valuable than the preference itself. Do you truly have no reasons more developed than "it doesn't bother me" for your rather outspoken support of this particular design element?
Why would I need to? Aside from you, I've never found anyone to be particularly opposed to it - and based upon the playtest, it's clearly not going anywhere.
I think we can all probably agree that one d&d should probably aim for a target slightly higher than "it doesn't bother me" in all things
On the contrary, if I consider a game element to be entirely acceptable and fully functional, I very much hope that they won't mess with it beyond some minor refinements. And so far, they haven't.
 

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