• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) Take A Closer Look At The 2024 Dungeon Master’s Guide

WotC shares video with a deeper dive

Wizards of the Coast has just shared a video delving into the upcoming One D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide, due for release in 2024.


Scroll down to post #4, below, for a more detailed text summary!
  • Chapter 1 -- basic concepts
  • Chapter 2 -- Advice, common issues
  • Chapter 3 -- Rules cyclopedia
  • Chapter 4 -- Adventure building
  • Chapter 5 -- Campaign building
  • Chapter 6 -- Cosmology
  • Chapter 7 -- Magic items
  • Chapter 8 -- 'A surprise'
  • Appendices -- maps, lore glossary
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
not at all. Most of them fall into a few categories:

  • 1: Newbies who honestly don't know how to participate in a session zero who have been given abhorrent expectations of stardom & Main Character positioning by wotc & 5e's player facing rulebooks, they are actively put on the wrong track by the core rules. I obviously lack anything to point them at a constructive path towards collaboration because the PHB is going to sabotage my efforts there & the TCoE session zero section seems written towards a hostile GM who doesn't even know what a session zero is & it almost entirely skips over players.

I'm sorry, other than trying to get players excited by saying "this is your story" how the heck do the rules of 5e put players on the wrong track? You keep making this claim like anyone who reads the rulebook will suddenly think they are THE KING OF ALL GAMES! but any newbie playing DnD first of all, likely knows it is a team game, and second of all, likely doesn't have the confidence for this expectations of stardom. I just don't see the evidence for this horrific, poisoned view of new players.

  • 2: Newbies who feel overloaded & can't be directed to some useful player facing text while I'm helping a different player. Players who aim to win a game with no win state & want to use anything they can

How are players who are overwhelmed the same as players who want to win the game? And why CAN'T you direct them to useful text for their questions?

  • 3: experienced players who learned how to constructively collaborate with the GM & don't really care to do it now or are entirely capable of improvising session zero type stuff during play. Player facing text that points groups 1&2 in this direction while the GM is busy working with one player at a time on something session zero-ish in topic
  • 4: Players who may or may not care if there is a session zero for whatever reason & just want to start playing but lack any guidance in text or mechanical pressure to collaborate with the other players in character building because PHB11-15 "Chapter 1: Step by step character creation" actively steers players away from collaborating on anything before they have a fully completed character.

What kinds of mechanical pressure are you wanting to put on players to force them to collaborate in character creation? This sounds like insanity to me. You know that in older editions (mostly second) "who plays the healer" is a joke because no one WANTS to play the healer? It sounds like you want to bring that back and force people to scramble for the roles they actually want to play, leaving someone with the short stick.

And this ALREADY happens in the 5e, so I don't see the value in making it worse.

This started with you quoting a post that begins with the following:


It's not like I was keeping the source of the session zero rules a secret or trying to obscure their source. Not only did I make it clear, I also pointed out that Perkins brought them up as an example of something great to move into the DMG.

I never said you were keeping it secret. I'm working on jet-lag and not having a good night's sleep for the past three days on top of stress. I missed it, and thought you were complaining about it being currently in the DMG because it is currently useless there.


The session zero rules in TCoE are not useful for inclusion in the DMG because they fasil to reach a "useful goal" by targeting a thought experiment caricature of a bad super-newbie GM who is almost certain to lack the skills needed to teach their players how to participate constructively & run with that constructive participation on their own.

False, but lets say you are right and these rules are for new DMs who don't quite understand how to run a session zero. Why is that not a useful goal? Why is teaching people about such a key concept a bad thing? Do you know that every core book of every TTRPG I've ever read has included a section on what TTRPGs are. Completely useless? Not if this is the first of those books you've ever read it isn't.

And, again, the rules don't need to teach the skills of how to work in a group with people. They learned it is kindergarten. If they are old enough to read, they are old enough to know how to work with others. And if they can't, a rulebook isn't exactly the best place to teach that.

Almost everything the TCoE session zero section talks about is stuff that a GM should often be doing throughout the campaign & should have sections dedicated to those things individually (if at all) rather than a quick summary.

"The rules should be more thorough" is a VERY different argument than "these rules are actively bad and failing to accomplish any meaningful goal."

The biggest nail in the skullfor that TCoE section though is PHB pages 11-15 where players are actively guided away from collaborating or considering anyone else at the table until they have a fully created character. Instead of the hold my beer intro players should have one that covers their role in session zero as part of chargen because much of it is important no matter when they are making a character or if they are meeting face to face for a session dubbed session zero instead of a quick colab over a group chat.


Okay, so I went and read over those pages (digital copy for the win)

Those pages are the pages that tell people how to create a character. And your problem with that, is that they start with "figure out what you may want to play" instead of "Go to your group and DM and collaboratively figure out what you will play"?

Because, man, as a DM? As a DM it is WAY easier for me to help someone who comes to me and says "I want to play a warrior with a massive hammer!" that it is for me to help someone who says "What should I play?" Because I don't have a clue what they SHOULD play. Because what they SHOULD play is whatever character interests them. I had a guy once play a bard, quit the game because he didn't feel effective in combat because he wasn't dealing direct damage (I wasn't the DM). If someone comes to me as a completely blank canvass, then I have to start asking them questions and chipping away at what they may or may not like. And there are TONS of options in DnD. It is kind of a staple of the game.

And no one comes into the process not realizing this is a team game, especially as the DM brings up the other players in session zero. But the rules don't talk about making an entire team, because that would just lead to Alpha Player Syndrome if handled poorly. And if you think players are divas now (which they aren't) just imagine a world where they got the impression they got to dictate the other people's characters as well.

Since you don;t have your book, here is the start of that session zero section that Perkins taled up up as an example of something great to add into the DMG in the video


Even if that was player facing elsewhere in the book the actual text on 139-141 is not actually written towards players & talks almost exclusively about what a GM should be doing during session zero with much of it at odds with the player facing PHB11-15 section on character creation & the later PHB section on backgrounds that likewise encourages players to take an isolated you be you outlook.

Okay?

Again, I had no problem with it being in the DMG when I misinterpreted what you were saying. You seem to think the PHB is telling players some sort of insidious message that then they will point to and declare from on high that the DM has no power here to... talk to them about how their character fits into the group dynamic? Like, that doesn't even make sense. Who objects to discussing how their character will work with others in the group, when playing a group game? The PHB certainly doesn't encourage that sort of behavior, they just talk to the player about the process of making a character. Something that can be done without a DM, because many people make extra characters for fun.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
.... I don't know how you could come to that totally backwards conclusion.conclusion. It conflicts with the GM having players who actively engage in good faith collaboration.

But unless you have a PHB that induces mind-control on people who read it, whether or not you have players who are willing to engage in good faith collaboration is determined by the PLAYERS, not by the phrasing of the book. If you have players who aren't willing to engage in good faith collaboration, then even if the book threatens them with torment and crit fails at every turn... they aren't going to be willing to engage in good faith collaboration.

And the book is INCREDIBLY mild in this thing you have fixated on.
 

I think that you're finding pushback due to your repeated characterization of players that makes them sound like incredibly self-absorbed lunatics that can't possibly communicate and the utterly powerless DM.
And the corollary that if only there were clearer rules about this, somehow those utter narcissist players and milquetoast DMs would suddenly all play in harmony, instead of, you know, still have things dissolve into immediate chaos since, yeah, narcissists like that simply aren't going to change because some rules in a book suggest they do so...
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
players who disregard everyone and everything ‘because the PHB tells them to’ (it doesn’t), seems to be a problem only you are facing, or not even you are facing.

A session 0 is levelsetting expectations, no more, no less. No one says that if it has not been addressed then, the DM just has to roll with it (or any player for that matter). If something bothers someone, they can bring it up at any time.

If you actually have these issues, drop those players

I actually think I know where he is coming from with this issue of "if you didn't address it in session 0". There are many times that things like running a game for an old-style ranger who has undead as a favored enemy and forest as a favored terrain.... in a game focused on killing Giants in the Desert, has been rebutted with "if that was the case, why didn't you talk to the player in Session 0?" Or things like Tieflings being so reviled that they are hunted and hanged by the local villagers. Which again brings the response "if this was the case, why didn't you talk to the player during session 0"

And really, those are the only times that phrasing comes up, when the players are blind-sided by some alteration or decision the DM makes that directly conflicts with the character they made. But the problem with the conclusion that this is solely the fault of the PHB not making players want to collaborate, is that if you have someone who actually does come to the table with a fully-formed character at session 0.... then you still need to talk to them. And in fact, you immediately KNOW what the problems are. They aren't getting lost in the chaotic shuffle of the discussion.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Nah, that part of your posts is perfectly reasonable. I don't think anyone has been arguing that the DON'T WANT there to be a well-written Session Zero section in the new books that explains to players (as well as DMs) how to Place Nice with Others.

I think that you're finding pushback due to your repeated characterization of players that makes them sound like incredibly self-absorbed lunatics that can't possibly communicate and the utterly powerless DM.
Should I guess what you are referencing and construct an answer based on that or do you care to elaborate? I'm not a mind reader. Give me an example or two & since they might be in response to specific text from TCoE :D maybe note if the context is critical before holding them up in isolation as an example of a described "lunatic." :D
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Should I guess what you are referencing and construct an answer based on that or do you care to elaborate? I'm not a mind reader. Give me an example or two & since they might be in response to specific text from TCoE :D maybe note if the context is critical before holding them up in isolation as an example of a described "lunatic." :D

I'm not following you here, I'm afraid. But I think you can see from a very many posts by posters other than just myself that they find your characterization of players to be a little... extreme.
 

Should I guess what you are referencing and construct an answer based on that or do you care to elaborate? I'm not a mind reader. Give me an example or two & since they might be in response to specific text from TCoE :D maybe note if the context is critical before holding them up in isolation as an example of a described "lunatic." :D
“The GM can talk to their players till the end of time but it doesn't matter if it's a conversation those players aren't ready & willing to engage in at an active or reasonable level.”

There are many other examples as well but this quote works.
From what you said the players refuse to communicate or engage with the DM and the DM is powerless. Which just makes no sense to me as I feel you can’t even play a game in that state.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I'm sorry, other than trying to get players excited by saying "this is your story" how the heck do the rules of 5e put players on the wrong track? You keep making this claim like anyone who reads the rulebook will suddenly think they are THE KING OF ALL GAMES! but any newbie playing DnD first of all, likely knows it is a team game, and second of all, likely doesn't have the confidence for this expectations of stardom. I just don't see the evidence for this horrific, poisoned view of new players.



How are players who are overwhelmed the same as players who want to win the game? And why CAN'T you direct them to useful text for their questions?



What kinds of mechanical pressure are you wanting to put on players to force them to collaborate in character creation? This sounds like insanity to me. You know that in older editions (mostly second) "who plays the healer" is a joke because no one WANTS to play the healer? It sounds like you want to bring that back and force people to scramble for the roles they actually want to play, leaving someone with the short stick.

And this ALREADY happens in the 5e, so I don't see the value in making it worse.



I never said you were keeping it secret. I'm working on jet-lag and not having a good night's sleep for the past three days on top of stress. I missed it, and thought you were complaining about it being currently in the DMG because it is currently useless there.
I answered some of this earlier here in post 339
It's right here in step six where for the first time it encourages talking to other players & the GM. Unfortunately the first five steps are the ones that cover every aspect of building a character & much of what is normally covered in S0. Other players are not mentioned in the first 5 steps & the DM is only mentioned in passing to note that they might give the player more options. As written the GM needs to fight the player facing guidance just to clawback the very idea that they should be involved at all.
In the past players made characters that required other players at the table to fill in for their gaps needs & weaknesses while the monsters were designed to require some level of magic item gains or even magic item churn. That mechanical pressure is no longer present. Since that wasn't clear though & simply linking to the text of Chapter 1: step by step character creation on dndbeyond with an explaination lets look over it... step by step...

1. Choose a Race​

Every character belongs to a race, one of the many intelligent humanoid species in the D&D world. The most common player character races are dwarves, elves, halflings, and humans. Some races also have subraces, such as mountain dwarf or wood elf. The Races section provides more information about these races.
The race you choose contributes to your character’s identity in an important way, by establishing a general appearance and the natural talents gained from culture and ancestry. Your character’s race grants particular racial traits, such as special senses, proficiency with certain weapons or tools, proficiency in one or more skills, or the ability to use minor spells. These traits sometimes dovetail with the capabilities of certain classes (see step 2). For example, the racial traits of lightfoot halflings make them exceptional rogues, and high elves tend to be powerful wizards. Sometimes playing against type can be fun, too. Halfling paladins and mountain dwarf wizards, for example, can be unusual but memorable characters.
Your race also increases one or more of your ability scores, which you determine in step 3. Note these increases and remember to apply them later.
Record the traits granted by your race on your character sheet. Be sure to note your starting languages and your base speed as well.
BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 1
Bob is sitting down to create his character. He decides that a gruff mountain dwarf fits the character he wants to play. He notes all the racial traits of dwarves on his character sheet, including his speed of 25 feet and the languages he knows: Common and Dwarvish.
Who cares how ( that race fits into the GM's world(if at all), you decide and move on to step2

2. Choose a Class​

Every adventurer is a member of a class. Class broadly describes a character’s vocation, what special talents he or she possesses, and the tactics he or she is most likely to employ when exploring a dungeon, fighting monsters, or engaging in a tense negotiation. The character classes are described in the Classes section.
Your character receives a number of benefits from your choice of class. Many of these benefits are class features — capabilities (including spellcasting) that set your character apart from members of other classes. You also gain a number of proficiencies: armor, weapons, skills, saving throws, and sometimes tools. Your proficiencies define many of the things your character can do particularly well, from using certain weapons to telling a convincing lie.
On your character sheet, record all the features that your class gives you at 1st level.

Level​

Typically, a character starts at 1st level and advances in level by adventuring and gaining experience points (XP). A 1st-level character is inexperienced in the adventuring world, although he or she might have been a soldier or a pirate and done dangerous things before.

Starting off at 1st level marks your character’s entry into the adventuring life. If you’re already familiar with the game, or if you are joining an existing D&D campaign, your DM might decide to have you begin at a higher level, on the assumption that your character has already survived a few harrowing adventures.

Record your level on your character sheet. If you’re starting at a higher level, record the additional elements your class gives you for your levels past 1st. Also record your experience points. A 1st-level character has 0 XP. A higher-level character typically begins with the minimum amount of XP required to reach that level (see “Beyond 1st Level” later in this section).

QUICK BUILD
Each class description in the Classes section includes a section offering suggestions to quickly build a character of that class, including how to assign your highest ability scores, a background suitable to the class, and starting spells.

Hit Points and Hit Dice​

Your character’s hit points define how tough your character is in combat and other dangerous situations. Your hit points are determined by your Hit Dice (short for Hit Point Dice).

At 1st level, your character has 1 Hit Die, and the die type is determined by your class. You start with hit points equal to the highest roll of that die, as indicated in your class description. (You also add your Constitution modifier, which you’ll determine in step 3.) This is also your hit point maximum.

Record your character’s hit points on your character sheet. Also record the type of Hit Die your character uses and the number of Hit Dice you have. After you rest, you can spend Hit Dice to regain hit points (see “Resting” in the Adventuring section).

Proficiency Bonus​

The table that appears in your class description shows your proficiency bonus, which is +2 for a 1st-level character. Your proficiency bonus applies to many of the numbers you’ll be recording on your character sheet:

  • Attack rolls using weapons you’re proficient with
  • Attack rolls with spells you cast
  • Ability checks using skills you’re proficient in
  • Ability checks using tools you’re proficient with
  • Saving throws you’re proficient in
  • Saving throw DCs for spells you cast (explained in each spellcasting class)
Your class determines your weapon proficiencies, your saving throw proficiencies, and some of your skill and tool proficiencies. (Skills are described in "Using Ability Scores", tools in "Equipment.") Your background gives you additional skill and tool proficiencies, and some races give you more proficiencies. Be sure to note all of these proficiencies, as well as your proficiency bonus, on your character sheet.

Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be modified (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied more than once, you nevertheless add it only once, multiply it only once, and halve it only once.

BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 2
Bob imagines Bruenor charging into battle with an axe, one horn on his helmet broken off. He makes Bruenor a fighter and notes the fighter’s proficiencies and 1st-level class features on his character sheet.
As a 1st-level fighter, Bruenor has 1 Hit Die—a d10—and starts with hit points equal to 10 + his Constitution modifier. Bob notes this, and will record the final number after he determines Bruenor’s Constitution score (see step 3). Bob also notes the proficiency bonus for a 1st-level character, which is +2.
Same problem as race but because lots of classes also have fluff so why would something session zeroish like this character creation stepwaste space mentioning how you should check with your GM before building a bunch of story off that. Continue on to step 3

Determine Ability Scores​

Much of what your character does in the game depends on his or her six abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Each ability has a score, which is a number you record on your character sheet.
The six abilities and their use in the game are described in the Using Ability Scores section. The Ability Score Summary table provides a quick reference for what qualities are measured by each ability, what races increases which abilities, and what classes consider each ability particularly important.
You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
Now take your six numbers and write each number beside one of your character’s six abilities to assign scores to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Afterward, make any changes to your ability scores as a result of your race choice.
After assigning your ability scores, determine your ability modifiers using the Ability Scores and Modifiers table. To determine an ability modifier without consulting the table, subtract 10 from the ability score and then divide the result by 2 (round down). Write the modifier next to each of your scores.
BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 3
Bob decides to use the standard set of scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for Bruenor’s abilities. Since he’s a fighter, he puts his highest score, 15, in Strength. His next-highest, 14, goes in Constitution. Bruenor might be a brash fighter, but Bob decides he wants the dwarf to be older, wiser, and a good leader, so he puts decent scores in Wisdom and Charisma. After applying his racial benefits (increasing Bruenor’s Constitution by 2 and his Strength by 2), Bruenor’s ability scores and modifiers look like this: Strength 17 (+3), Dexterity 10 (+0), Constitution 16 (+3), Intelligence 8 (–1), Wisdom 13 (+1), Charisma 12 (+1).
Bob fills in Bruenor’s final hit points: 10 + his Constitution modifier of +3, for a total of 13 hit points.
Ardently the GM doesn't even get a say on if 4d6k3 or pointbuy is the right thing for their game. Things like a different roll or modified pointbuy don't even need to be mentioned. Since it would truly be hard to have an alternate attribute generation method that is better than the elite array the GM is going to have an extra steep hurdle pushing through that nerf too... What possible reason could justify the PHB excluding the GM from this choice?

4. Describe Your Character​

Once you know the basic game aspects of your character, it’s time to flesh him or her out as a person. Your character needs a name. Spend a few minutes thinking about what he or she looks like and how he or she behaves in general terms.
Using the information in the Personality and Background section, you can flesh out your character’s physical appearance and personality traits. Choose your character’s alignment (the moral compass that guides his or her decisions) and ideals. The Personality and Background section also helps you identify the things your character holds most dear, called bonds, and the flaws that could one day undermine him or her.
Your character’s background describes where he or she came from, his or her original occupation, and the character’s place in the D&D world. Your DM might offer additional backgrounds beyond the ones included in the Personality and Background section, and might be willing to work with you to craft a background that’s a more precise fit for your character concept.
A background gives your character a background feature (a general benefit) and proficiency in two skills, and it might also give you additional languages or proficiency with certain kinds of tools. Record this information, along with the personality information you develop, on your character sheet.

Your Character's Abilities​

Take your character’s ability scores and race into account as you flesh out his or her appearance and personality. A very strong character with low Intelligence might think and behave very differently from a very smart character with low Strength.
For example, high Strength usually corresponds with a burly or athletic body, while a character with low Strength might be scrawny or plump.
A character with high Dexterity is probably lithe and slim, while a character with low Dexterity might be either gangly and awkward or heavy and thick-fingered.
A character with high Constitution usually looks healthy, with bright eyes and abundant energy. A character with low Constitution might be sickly or frail.
A character with high Intelligence might be highly inquisitive and studious, while a character with low Intelligence might speak simply or easily forget details.
A character with high Wisdom has good judgment, empathy, and a general awareness of what’s going on. A character with low Wisdom might be absent-minded, foolhardy, or oblivious.
A character with high Charisma exudes confidence, which is usually mixed with a graceful or intimidating presence. A character with a low Charisma might come across as abrasive, inarticulate, or timid.
BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 4
Bob fills in some of Bruenor’s basic details: his name, his sex (male), his height and weight, and his alignment (lawful good). His high Strength and Constitution suggest a healthy, athletic body, and his low Intelligence suggests a degree of forgetfulness.
Bob decides that Bruenor comes from a noble line, but his clan was expelled from its homeland when Bruenor was very young. He grew up working as a smith in the remote villages of Icewind Dale. But Bruenor has a heroic destiny—to reclaim his homeland—so Bob chooses the folk hero background for his dwarf. He notes the proficiencies and special feature this background gives him.
Bob has a pretty clear picture of Bruenor’s personality in mind, so he skips the personality traits suggested in the folk hero background, noting instead that Bruenor is a caring, sensitive dwarf who genuinely loves his friends and allies, but he hides this soft heart behind a gruff, snarling demeanor. He chooses the ideal of fairness from the list in his background, noting that Bruenor believes that no one is above the law.
Given his history, Bruenor’s bond is obvious: he aspires to someday reclaim Mithral Hall, his homeland, from the shadow dragon that drove the dwarves out. His flaw is tied to his caring, sensitive nature—he has a soft spot for orphans and wayward souls, leading him to show mercy even when it might not be warranted.
There are a lot of problems here. BIFTS are a thing that should absolutely be worked out with the other players& GM at the table. Those are even mentioned in the TCOE section but written to the GM rather than players actually doing it.

Lastly literally every part of that last bit on backgrounds dives into building one or more aspects of the GM's world without even mentioning the GM or DM. That's a pretty big problem when the GM says "well the game is set in $setting & that's not going to fit" but the player has been told to just come up with all this stuff without speaking to anyone else because now there's a potentially excessive backstory that conflicts with the world in one or more ways that the player has grown deeply attached to

5. Choose Equipment​

Your class and background determine your character’s starting equipment, including weapons, armor, and other adventuring gear. Record this equipment on your character sheet. All such items are detailed in the Equipment section.
Instead of taking the gear given to you by your class and background, you can purchase your starting equipment. You have a number of gold pieces (gp) to spend based on your class, as shown in the Equipment section. Extensive lists of equipment, with prices, also appear in that section. If you wish, you can also have one trinket at no cost (see the "Trinkets" table at the end of the Equipment section).
Your Strength score limits the amount of gear you can carry. Try not to purchase equipment with a total weight (in pounds) exceeding your Strength score times 15. "Using Ability Scores" has more information on carrying capacity.

Armor Class​

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how well your character avoids being wounded in battle. Things that contribute to your AC include the armor you wear, the shield you carry, and your Dexterity modifier. Not all characters wear armor or carry shields, however.
Without armor or a shield, your character’s AC equals 10 + his or her Dexterity modifier. If your character wears armor, carries a shield, or both, calculate your AC using the rules in the Equipment section. Record your AC on your character sheet.
Your character needs to be proficient with armor and shields to wear and use them effectively, and your armor and shield proficiencies are determined by your class. There are drawbacks to wearing armor or carrying a shield if you lack the required proficiency, as explained in the Equipment section.
Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use.

Weapons​

For each weapon your character wields, calculate the modifier you use when you attack with the weapon and the damage you deal when you hit.
When you make an attack with a weapon, you roll a d20 and add your proficiency bonus (but only if you are proficient with the weapon) and the appropriate ability modifier.
  • For attacks with melee weapons, use your Strength modifier for attack and damage rolls. A weapon that has the finesse property, such as a rapier, can use your Dexterity modifier instead.
  • For attacks with ranged weapons, use your Dexterity modifier for attack and damage rolls. A melee weapon that has the thrown property, such as a handaxe, can use your Strength modifier instead.
BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 5
Bob writes down the starting equipment from the fighter class and the folk hero background. His starting equipment includes chain mail and a shield, which combine to give Bruenor an Armor Class of 18.
For Bruenor’s weapons, Bob chooses a battleaxe and two handaxes. His battleaxe is a melee weapon, so Bruenor uses his Strength modifier for his attacks and damage. His attack bonus is his Strength modifier (+3) plus his proficiency bonus (+2), for a total of +5. The battleaxe deals 1d8 slashing damage, and Bruenor adds his Strength modifier to the damage when he hits, for a total of 1d8 + 3 slashing damage. When throwing a handaxe, Bruenor has the same attack bonus (handaxes, as thrown weapons, use Strength for attacks and damage), and the weapon deals 1d6 + 3 slashing damage when it hits.
The idea that the GM might want to alter the available equipment is apparently so far into heresy that once again they are not even mentioned.

6. Come Together​

Most D&D characters don’t work alone. Each character plays a role within a party, a group of adventurers working together for a common purpose. Teamwork and cooperation greatly improve your party’s chances to survive the many perils in the worlds of Dungeons & Dragons. Talk to your fellow players and your DM to decide whether your characters know one another, how they met, and what sorts of quests the group might undertake.
Well it's a bit late to start thinking about this kind of thing given that the character has been entirely & fully created & nobody else at the table has even been mentioned. Up until this point the character has been 100% created in isolation without even pointers on when to talk to others at the table.
The post is getting a bit long responding to your very long post & changing gears so I'll continue in a second post.
 

mamba

Legend
In the past players made characters that required other players at the table to fill in for their gaps needs & weaknesses while the monsters were designed to require some level of magic item gains or even magic item churn. That mechanical pressure is no longer present.
you are just quoting the steps of character generation, at no point do these steps say 'under no circumstances discuss what you play with anyone else or let them talk you into changing anything, no matter how beneficial for the party or adventure that change would be'
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
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Epic
False, but lets say you are right and these rules are for new DMs who don't quite understand how to run a session zero. Why is that not a useful goal?


Why is teaching people about such a key concept a bad thing? Do you know that every core book of every TTRPG I've ever read has included a section on what TTRPGs are. Completely useless? Not if this is the first of those books you've ever read it isn't.

And, again, the rules don't need to teach the skills of how to work in a group with people. They learned it is kindergarten. If they are old enough to read, they are old enough to know how to work with others. And if they can't, a rulebook isn't exactly the best place to teach that.



"The rules should be more thorough" is a VERY different argument than "these rules are actively bad and failing to accomplish any meaningful goal."




Okay, so I went and read over those pages (digital copy for the win)

Those pages are the pages that tell people how to create a character. And your problem with that, is that they start with "figure out what you may want to play" instead of "Go to your group and DM and collaboratively figure out what you will play"?

Because, man, as a DM? As a DM it is WAY easier for me to help someone who comes to me and says "I want to play a warrior with a massive hammer!" that it is for me to help someone who says "What should I play?" Because I don't have a clue what they SHOULD play. Because what they SHOULD play is whatever character interests them. I had a guy once play a bard, quit the game because he didn't feel effective in combat because he wasn't dealing direct damage (I wasn't the DM). If someone comes to me as a completely blank canvass, then I have to start asking them questions and chipping away at what they may or may not like. And there are TONS of options in DnD. It is kind of a staple of the game.

And no one comes into the process not realizing this is a team game, especially as the DM brings up the other players in session zero. But the rules don't talk about making an entire team, because that would just lead to Alpha Player Syndrome if handled poorly. And if you think players are divas now (which they aren't) just imagine a world where they got the impression they got to dictate the other people's characters as well.



Okay?

Again, I had no problem with it being in the DMG when I misinterpreted what you were saying. You seem to think the PHB is telling players some sort of insidious message that then they will point to and declare from on high that the DM has no power here to... talk to them about how their character fits into the group dynamic? Like, that doesn't even make sense. Who objects to discussing how their character will work with others in the group, when playing a group game? The PHB certainly doesn't encourage that sort of behavior, they just talk to the player about the process of making a character. Something that can be done without a DM, because many people make extra characters for fun.

Listen to what Brennen Lee Mulligan is saying here. Here's a quick & likely only partial transcript skipping a lot of like/um/etc "Lets just acknowledge that there's nothing you can do if the players don't care. At the end of the day I don't care how good of a GM you are, the players are the driving energy of the game. I truely feel that the weird thing about all of these tabletops as a GM is weirdly you're a one person greek chorus. "You're the supporting cast. The story has to follow what's happening out there. The weird analogy I always find is like when you're baking you'll find out what you didn't put into the mix in the oven. You find out way too late to toss it in.... I feel that way all the time when people make characters & they'll be like 'It's not clicking for me, there's something that happened this session that wasn't fun for me' It has nothing to do with this session... You made a character with no connection to the world they are fun... Or you made a character who has no history.. I don't think you need all the backstory in the world... What backstory is there to do is give you trajectory, where you are coming from informs where you are going & it's the going that's essential. People will be 'I don't need a backstory' cool where's your momentum coming from, how are you moving? Cause if you start with someone who's like 'what's up?! 'I have a class & spells & magical gear literally no desires & no attachments'.. buddy that's enlightenment I don't know what to tell you. You're actually done you win, you beat the game. You have no attachments & no desires? You have no goals? No enemies or friends? "

He continues from there but immediately before all of that is a bit from Matt Mercer talking about how he sends out questions & such to his players to back door in some backstory & such that he can use, but that was what led into Bleem got started talking about how you can't do anything as a GM if the players don't care. They can not care by not bothering to put much (if any) thought into their answers & obviously won't remember the answers when they come up. They can not care by immediately forgetting those answers only to decide to go back tabula rasa without talking to the GM (or anyone else) on the side.
 

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