D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[fluffybunbunkittens]

If WotC is committed to spending time and space on putting in epic boons, at least someone would get to make use of them if they were available at a level people play at...

 

[Bluenose]

Sure, but I'm still going to push for real changes that might actually start to put a dent in the disparity between casters and martials.

If anything the playtest package suggests a significant increase in that disparity. Look at what Sorcerors and Wizards got.

Well, if you're going to do that, are you going to allow feats to be partially the means with which that is fulfilled.

Didn't exactly work out well in 3e, that. Could it be done better? Perhaps, but then you'd really have to give some spectacularly powerful feats at higher levels to even get up to the level of mythical Herakles let alone the superhero powers of high-level casters (which, I guarantee, will not be taken away).

 

[Chaosmancer]

If anything the playtest package suggests a significant increase in that disparity. Look at what Sorcerors and Wizards got.

Didn't exactly work out well in 3e, that. Could it be done better? Perhaps, but then you'd really have to give some spectacularly powerful feats at higher levels to even get up to the level of mythical Herakles let alone the superhero powers of high-level casters (which, I guarantee, will not be taken away).

The most frustrating thing? I don't hate most of the changes to the casters. I think Sorcerer even needs a little more (and wizard is less broken than I feared)

It is just so hard to get parity. And it feels like we are constantly fighting against the same myths and perceptions time and time again.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If anything the playtest package suggests a significant increase in that disparity. Look at what Sorcerors and Wizards got.

Didn't exactly work out well in 3e, that. Could it be done better? Perhaps, but then you'd really have to give some spectacularly powerful feats at higher levels to even get up to the level of mythical Herakles let alone the superhero powers of high-level casters (which, I guarantee, will not be taken away).

Why do they need to do things comparable to casters? They should have abilities that allow them to sometimes bypass a challenge alltogether, sure, but it doesn't need to be anything like blowing up a mountain or whatever.

Stuff like what can be done with athletics and acrobatics after certain levels, class features that increase speed or jump distance, features that give "even more powerful build" because you're a demigod, whatever, cool.

But the oft cited cutting through mountains with your sword just...I want fantasy, not tall tales.

 

[ECMO3]

This thread is to discuss the new fighter.

So all in all, pretty solid. First, the bonus to indomitable is great! Its not quite auto-pass like I was hoping but it gets pretty close at high levels. Also the ability at higher levels to combine an indomitable and heal is very nice!

On the masteries, I think they will be nice editions, although I do think WOTC doesn't understand that more masteries really isn't a benefit. You get 3 at the start and you can swap them with a long rest....I mean what else do you need? That's 2 melee and a ranged weapon right there. Getting to 4th and 5th weapons for masteries, that seems like a complete ribbon at that point. Obviously using multiple masteries on the same weapon is cool.

And of course the greatest flavor victory, giving Persuasion to the fighter! While there have already been a number of ways to do this through backgrounds and the like, its nice that WOTC acknowledges the Fighter is often the leader of the group in flavor, and needs to have a bit of persuasive charisma to get the job done at times.

In terms of the Champion, the new powers are both simple and generally quite useful. Another skill....absolutely. More heroic inspiration, can always use more of that. I appreciated that they focused a bit more on the breadth here, giving the champion options that can be used in combat, or more out of combat stuff if they want to.
Overall I would give the new fighter and the weapons changes a D-. I can't really look at the fighter alone because it is really the combination with the weapon changes that makes it unlikable for me.

The change to indomitable is the only good thing and I like Persuasion being an available skill (honestly I think all skills except Religion should be available to fighter).

The rest of the class changes I do not like at all. A couple key things:

Overall I would give the new fighter and the weapons changes a D-. I can't really look at the fighter alone because it is really the combination with the weapon changes that makes it bad for me.

The change to indomitable is the only good thing and I like Persuasion being an available skill (honestly I think all skills except Religion should be available to fighter).

The rest of the class changes I do not like at all. A couple key things:

1. The changes to Lance pretty much eliminate small races as an effective high damage strength-based fighter. The old Lance was good in this regard and filled an important niche. It gave the little players a solid d12 option that was not heavy. Every Goblin, Kender and Halfling stength-fighter I played had a lance in her kit. They still weren't as optimized as a big player who could get the GWM feat or PAM on top of high damage or reach, but they weren't far behind either and could go with a different build style. Now the Lance is pretty much not viable for a small player and as a result small strength fighters are no longer really viable. The d10 PAM reach weapons and 1d12/2d6 heavy weapons were still there for the big guys who want to play that style, I am not sure why we had to add lance as well.

2. Likewise the prerequisites for some of the masterys effectively eliminate small fighters from getting those.

3. The masterys themselves are ovecomplicated. This is going to be a MUCH higher entry cost to play the game, especilly since what was the simplest class is now one of the most complex. I like the idea of mastery, but it should be one mastery for melee weapons (probably cleave) and one mastery for missile weapons (probably slow) and if you are a fighter of a certain level you can use them both, but only once per attack.

This is going to make using weapons a ton more complicated and take it from what was elegant and simple to something more about rules than story and it will be difficult both for DMs and for inexperienced players.

Will this fighter be equal power to a high level caster, eh probably not. Is it a step in the right direction and overall an improvement to the original concept? It is indeed.

No, and I don't think they should be. It is a step in the direction of 3E IMO and that is not a good thing.

If these changes stay in the game I expect a lot of people will not move on to 5.5e and I also think a lot will look at the new Black Flag game as an alternative.

 

[ECMO3]

Yup that’s what D&D is now. Casters

Are you kidding me? Fighters are WAY more common than any caster right now.

Some time we may get to where most people want to play full casters, but we are not close to being there yet.

 

[Bluenose]

Why do they need to do things comparable to casters? They should have abilities that allow them to sometimes bypass a challenge alltogether, sure, but it doesn't need to be anything like blowing up a mountain or whatever.

If they're not comparable to casters at high levels, then just make Fighter a class with 10 levels and have them get all their abilities in those levels. Make it explicit that this is a game where anyone who doesn't have spells doesn't have high-levels because their abilities stop. Stop pretending that the game gives martials high-level abilities at all.

Stuff like what can be done with athletics and acrobatics after certain levels, class features that increase speed or jump distance, features that give "even more powerful build" because you're a demigod, whatever, cool.

But the oft cited cutting through mountains with your sword just...I want fantasy, not tall tales.

Interesting example there, particularly since you also call out "blowing up mountains" in the first paragraph. Warriors get the Fantasy abilities, Casters get the tall tales. That'll clear up all the complaints about caster-martial disparity forever.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If they're not comparable to casters at high levels, then just make Fighter a class with 10 levels and have them get all their abilities in those levels. Make it explicit that this is a game where anyone who doesn't have spells doesn't have high-levels because their abilities stop. Stop pretending that the game gives martials high-level abilities at all.

This is absurd hyperbole with no purpose. Fighters get high level abilities. The high level fighter could even still get abilities that allow them to bypass some challenges. They just can’t be overtly magical, unless they’re abilities for a subclass that is overtly magical.

And just to be clear, “comparable” as a matter of type here, not scale. If you can design some actually martial abilities that are comparable in power level to high level spells, I’m all for it. They just cannot be spells in disguise, or otherwise overtly magical.

Interesting example there, particularly since you also call out "blowing up mountains" in the first paragraph.

Hercules can’t blow up mountains. Chu Chulain couldn’t cut one in half with his sword. And these are deified mythical figures.

Warriors get the Fantasy abilities, Casters get the tall tales.

No, casters having strange and terrible power is fantasy.

That'll clear up all the complaints about caster-martial disparity forever.

I really don’t care. There will always be such complaints. If you stayed truly martial in 4e it still happened. Because “guy with sword” has to do different kinds of things than “sorcerer”.

 

[Azzy]

Why do they need to do things comparable to casters? They should have abilities that allow them to sometimes bypass a challenge alltogether, sure, but it doesn't need to be anything like blowing up a mountain or whatever.

Stuff like what can be done with athletics and acrobatics after certain levels, class features that increase speed or jump distance, features that give "even more powerful build" because you're a demigod, whatever, cool.

But the oft cited cutting through mountains with your sword just...I want fantasy, not tall tales.

OTOH, at tiers 3 and 4, fighters should be as equally legendary and mythic as casters.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The change to indomitable is the only good thing and I like Persuasion being an available skill (honestly I think all skills except Religion should be available to fighter).

I truly don't get the idea behind class skill lists. It is beyond trivial to get the same skill from two sources, and therefore get any skill. I'd just open all skills to all classes really.

2. Likewise the prerequisites for some of the masterys effectively eliminate small fighters from getting those.

Hmm, you are right, I didn't consider that.

3. The masterys themselves are ovecomplicated. This is going to be a MUCH higher entry cost to play the game, especilly since what was the simplest class is now one of the most complex. I like the idea of mastery, but it should be one mastery for melee weapons (probably cleave) and one mastery for missile weapons (probably slow) and if you are a fighter of a certain level you can use them both, but only once per attack.

This is going to make using weapons a ton more complicated and take it from what was elegant and simple to something more about rules than story and it will be difficult both for DMs and for inexperienced players.

Disagree. None of these are complex at all.