Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3

[FormerlyHemlock]

Because the character is an idiot, that was pretty well established. He's naive, a child in many ways. While I can accept that some people don't like this portrayal of Adam Warlock....to me the naive, child-like character not having good strategy made perfect sense.

I also think they were pretty consistent with his durability....in that he didn't actually have a lot of it. That part was interesting, we are used to characters with Super Strength also having super durability. And while Adam was clearly more durable than a human, he was no Thor in terms of taking a punch. He was in effect a glass cannon.

I don't read the comics, but still, if I instruct a superpowered rocket-man to "go to Knowhere and kidnap the talking raccoon," I expect him to get the raccoon and leave, not get the raccoon and drop him. I did enjoy Adam Warlock's personality overall--his affection for the "weird thing" was very touching--but the beginning makes less sense every time I watch it. There could at least have been a chase that forced him to drop Rocket involuntarily.

Rocket was unharmed by the equivalent of multiple car crashes in a fraction of a second--collision with Adam Warlock followed by collisions which punched holes in several walls at maybe fifty miles an hour. The next scene he's as fragile as a human, dying from crushed lungs or something.

Sometimes Adam Warlock effortlessly rips the heads off people. Sometimes he can't (Drax).

I have no idea whether Adam was better or worse than Thor at taking a punch. I don't even know how good Thor is at taking a punch. With comic book characters I can never tell. The one law they always obey is: sharp objects like swords seriously injure them. (Including in this movie.)

I liked the original Guardians of the Galaxy power levels better: Ronan outfought Drax, casually dodging or parrying his blows instead of face-tanking them, and when faced with a high-speed collision with a solid surface, Groot had to give up his life to save the others. It didn't feel like a comic book, although it definitely felt like a science fiction story.

But this one did.

 

[pukunui]

I don't read the comics, but still, if I instruct a superpowered rocket-man to "go to Knowhere and kidnap the talking raccoon," I expect him to get the raccoon and leave, not get the raccoon and drop him. I did enjoy Adam Warlock's personality overall--his affection for the "weird thing" was very touching--but the beginning makes less sense every time I watch it. There could at least have been a chase that forced him to drop Rocket involuntarily.

Rocket was unharmed by the equivalent of multiple car crashes in a fraction of a second--collision with Adam Warlock followed by collisions which punched holes in several walls at maybe fifty miles an hour. The next scene he's as fragile as a human, dying from crushed lungs or something.

Sometimes Adam Warlock effortlessly rips the heads off people. Sometimes he can't (Drax).

I have no idea whether Adam was better or worse than Thor at taking a punch. I don't even know how good Thor is at taking a punch. With comic book characters I can never tell. The one law they always obey is: sharp objects like swords seriously injure them. (Including in this movie.)

I liked the original Guardians of the Galaxy power levels better: Ronan outfought Drax, casually dodging or parrying his blows instead of face-tanking them, and when faced with a high-speed collision with a solid surface, Groot had to give up his life to save the others. It didn't feel like a comic book, although it definitely felt like a science fiction story.

But this one did.

The deal with Adam was that the High Evolutionary got impatient and pulled him out of his artificial womb or whatever it was too soon, so he hadn't fully developed yet.

Also, I will need to see it again to confirm, but I believe Rocket was dying because he took one of Adam's energy blasts to the chest, not from being flung through multiple walls at high speed.

Lastly, it does seem like the MCU is moving in a more comic book physics direction. Love & Thunder was very comic book-y as well.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Also, I will need to see it again to confirm, but I believe Rocket was dying because he took one of Adam's energy blasts to the chest, not from being flung through multiple walls at high speed.

He did, but 48 hours later his skin is unmarred even before they get the passkey that lets them use medpacks on him, so... [shrug] it wasn't like he got a hole cut in him or anything.

And the fact that getting flung through multiple solid walls at vehicular speeds didn't injure him is my point.

Ironically this movie felt more like D&D 5E in the combat scenes than Honor Among Thieves did. I guess Rocket just ran out of HP. (Honor Among Thieves' combat scenes felt like GURPS.)

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Respectfully, I don't agree with most of this.

I liked the movie and the backstory, but that hallway fight went on forever (with no consequences to the protagonists!) and I just wanted it to end.

I thought it was cool and really well done, but this part I understand. If you're not into it, it went long.

I enjoyed the movie, but... there were a lot of fridge logic moments that didn't make sense, and unlike the first Guardians of the Galaxy which I enjoyed specifically because it didn't run by comic book logic, this one definitely did.

I don't get what you mean here. What's "comic book logic"?

Various characters forgot about equipment in order to create drama (Rocket's aero-rigs and Peter's helmet + rocketboots are essential space gear but got ignored TWICE), various characters varied wildly from scene to scene in their physical strength and durability (a character who is fragile in one scene is invulnerable in another), the whole movie relied on Adam Warlock holding the Idiot Ball (why didn't he just take Rocket away instead of smashing him through a wall and then ignoring him to fight Nebula et al.?).

It seems pretty consistent to me that some things are powerful enough to harm them and others are not. Nathan Fillion's gun hurts Drax, for example, but Drax can take a LOT of punishment from getting knocked about.

Adam Warlock IS an idiot as portrayed here. Why would you expect him to make the best decisions? Maybe he just felt like fighting.

Ultimately I think the movie's greatest and most comic-bookish sin

I don't like how you're using that as an insult. Thinking that comics are all one thing is like thinking that all movies are sports movies or all TV shows are crime procedurals.

is that it pulled too many punches. Things that should have mattered enormously, that should have carried a lot of emotional weight, didn't.

Hmm. I think a lot of people who watched that movie felt that it caried a lot of emotional weight.

You can't watch Star Wars: A New Hope without realizing that you just watched a movie where billions of people got murdered when their planet blew up. But Guardians 3's tone expects you to forget about billions(?) of people dying because hundreds of animals like those from which the people were made got saved. They expect you to forget about presumably thousands of casualties on Knowhere from the hundreds or thousands of murderbots that attacked it (unless they all miserably failed at their murder mission?), just because Kraglin killed a dozen of the murderbots with the arrow and an assist from the dog.

I mean, they didn't spend a lot of time on it, but the characters certainly reacted to what happened. They didn't really have time within the confines of the movie to spend time being sad about it, but I think the movie made quite a lot of effort to point out how horrible the actions of the bad guy were. More than the usual amount, certainly more than Star Wars, where Leia is NEVER seen being upset about her homeworld's destruction and doesn't even have a single line of dialogue regarding it after it happens, IIRC.

I enjoyed the movie, but I can't help feeling like its unintended Broken Aesop (Broken Aesop - TV Tropes) is: Only Some Lives Matter. It doesn't sit well with me.

On the one hand, you're complaining that it was too comic-bookish, but on the other hand, you're complaining that the morality isn't black-and-white. All the characters are deeply flawed. That's part of the point.

Also Gamora was inexplicably much more of a murderous murdering murderer than at the start of Guardians 1, even though Peter's acquisition of the orb is the same time period she came from. This Gamora would have just stabbed Peter in the chest and taken the Orb away from him instead of trying to steal it, and Rocket and Groot would have been left trying to collect bounty on a corpse. The Guardians would never have gone to prison and teamed up.

She'd gone through a few years of different experiences by the start of this film. She may have been open to positive change at the point in her life where GotG1 started, but by now has been hanging out with the Ravagers doing Ravagey things. (Though they seem to be a pretty loveable group themselves). Clearly there's something about the Guardians (and Quill himself) that speaks to her in a way that brings out the best in her.

At any rate, you're absolutely free to not like it, of course. I just feel like a lot of your nitpicks remind me of reviews where the author says "(this part) doesn't make an sense!" when the explanation is explicitly called out in the film. It's one thing when a movie contradicts itself or seems like the makers gave NO THOUGHT to the consequences of the actions shown on screen (Wonder Woman raping a guy comes to mind - NO ONE noticed that while making the film?) but this movie (to me, anyhow) seemed to, if anything, go out of its way to make sure that everything was consistent and called out by the characters. YMMV.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

On the one hand, you're complaining that it was too comic-bookish, but on the other hand, you're complaining that the morality isn't black-and-white. All the characters are deeply flawed. That's part of the point.

You've misunderstood. That isn't my complaint at all. This movie has the same tone as a hypothetical Guardians of the Galaxy 1 wherein Ronan wipes out everybody on Xandar with the Orb before the Guardians grab it, but the movie's epilogue is left unchanged.

Rocket: Question. What if I see something that I want to take, and it belongs to someone else?

Corpsman Dey: Well you will be arrested.

Rocket: But what if I want it more than the person who has it?

Corpsman Dey: Still illegal.

Rocket: That doesn't follow. No, I want it more, sir. Do you understand? [to Gamora who's laughing] What are you laughing at? Why? I can't have a discussion with this gentleman? [he starts following Gamora towards the Milano]

Drax: What if someone does something irksome and I decide to remove his spine?

Corpsman Dey: That's...that's actually murder. It's one of the worst crimes of all, so also illegal.

Drax: Hmm.

These are very funny lines that would be utterly inappropriate in the wake of a planetary-scale massacre.

Broken Aesop isn't about black and white morality. It's about unfortunate implications.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

You've misunderstood. That isn't my complaint at all. This movie has the same tone as a hypothetical Guardians of the Galaxy 1 wherein Ronan wipes out everybody on Xandar with the Orb before the Guardians grab it, but the movie's epilogue is left unchanged. "Something good. Something bad. Bit of both." In the wake of a devastating massacre that would be utterly inappropriate.

Broken Aesop isn't about black and white morality. It's about unfortunate implications.

Okay. But I think the movie (and the characters therein) are entirely aware that they failed to save the animal-folk and their world. They go out of their way to point out that just because they were strange animal-people doesn't make them not-real. It would have been easier to let the audience worry about that (like Star Wars does, including things like blowing up the Death Star with its THOUSANDS of laboring mechanics to go with the space-Nazis) but it has the characters specifically call out how awful (the act) was.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was overall very light in tone for something with so much casual murder. (I mean, Star Lord's murder of the Recorder is very nearly played for laughs), but I really don't think that has anything whatsoever to do with "comic book logic" (if anything, Movies tend to have far more of this sort of logic then comics do).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Okay. But I think the movie (and the characters therein) are entirely aware that they failed to save the animal-folk and their world. They go out of their way to point out that just because they were strange animal-people doesn't make them not-real. It would have been easier to let the audience worry about that (like Star Wars does, including things like blowing up the Death Star with its THOUSANDS of laboring mechanics to go with the space-Nazis) but it has the characters specifically call out how awful (the act) was.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was overall very light in tone for something with so much casual murder. (I mean, Star Lord's murder of the Recorder is very nearly played for laughs), but I really don't think that has anything whatsoever to do with "comic book logic" (if anything, Movies tend to have far more of this sort of logic then comics do).

I added some dialogue to my post upthread to clarify my point, and why having a line of dialogue in the middle of the action about how the High Evolutionary is bad for killing them isn't enough to set the appropriate tone for the aftermath of a planetary scale massacre.

Remember that it's not just about the planet--it's also about most of the people on Knowhere (presumably) dying to the hundreds or thousands of murderbots shown attacking it because Peter brought them into the fight. Those people didn't get even a single line of dialogue to acknowledge their lives or deaths. It would have been a better movie if Gunn had resisted the temptation to have thousands of murderbots, had merely had dozens of murderbots, and let Peter, Gamora, Groot and Rocket shoot down most of them but still a dozen get through to hit Knowhere, where Kraglin takes them down. Then there wouldn't need to BE enormous numbers of near-invisible casualties on Knowhere whom the movie doesn't care about.

In Star Wars, at least we got:

Obi-Wan: I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

Here, nothing.

P.S. I would have preferred e.g. if the lady who had loaned them the car had made it to the final scenes, maybe joined Nebula's colony. Seeing her and her family as refugees would have been sad, but APPROPRIATELY sad, because a sad thing happened when their world died.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I added some dialogue to my post upthread to clarify my point, and why having a line of dialogue in the middle of the action about how the High Evolutionary is bad for killing them isn't enough to set the appropriate tone for the aftermath of a planetary scale massacre.

Remember that it's not just about the planet--it's also about most of the people on Knowhere (presumably) dying to the hundreds or thousands of murderbots shown attacking it because Peter brought them into the fight. Those people didn't get even a single line of dialogue to acknowledge their lives or deaths. It would have been a better movie if Gunn had resisted the temptation to have thousands of murderbots, had merely had dozens of murderbots, and let Peter, Gamora, Groot and Rocket shoot down most of them but still a dozen get through to hit Knowhere, where Kraglin takes them down. Then there wouldn't need to BE enormous numbers of near-invisible casualties on Knowhere whom the movie doesn't care about.

It seemed to me like the people of Nowhere were willing to fight. It was war. Sure, it would have been good to have seen more aftermath, but there were quite a few shots that implied that Nowherians were willing to make sacrifices and fight. Yeah, there were probably too many troops, but at least it wasn't a thousand superdooper Star Destroyers cut and pasted over and over.

P.S. I would have preferred e.g. if the lady who had loaned them the car had made it to the final scenes, maybe joined Nebula's colony. Seeing her and her family as refugees would have been sad, but APPROPRIATELY sad, because a sad thing happened when their world died.

That would have been nice!

Overall, I think that this movie did far more heavy lifting toward almost all of your complaints than most of them do.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It seemed to me like the people of Nowhere were willing to fight. It was war. Sure, it would have been good to have seen more aftermath, but there were quite a few shots that implied that Nowherians were willing to make sacrifices and fight. Yeah, there were probably too many troops, but (A) at least it wasn't a thousand superdooper Star Destroyers cut and pasted over and over.

That would have been nice!

Overall, I think that this movie did far more heavy lifting toward almost all of your complaints (B) than most of them do.

(A) At least it wasn't The Rise of Skywalker? Yeah, but... that movie was singularly bad. I was partway though Rise of Skywalker when I had the shocking realization that not only was this movie worse than The Last Jedi, it was worse than Thor or even Steven Spielberg's AI: Artificial Intelligence!

(B) It's a better than average movie, and there are a lot of things I like about it. It's the best Marvel movie I've seen in years. But it's weaker than Guardians of the Galaxy 1. I'm not sure how it stacks up next to 2, although I did enjoy watching 3 more than 2.

 

[payn]

(B) It's a better than average movie, and there are a lot of things I like about it. It's the best Marvel movie I've seen in years. But it's weaker than Guardians of the Galaxy 1. I'm not sure how it stacks up next to 2, although I did enjoy watching 3 more than 2.

I cant say I agree. I liked the second one a lot more. I feel like 3 was bogged down with way too much future building junk that Marvel likes to do these days. 3 was fine, I didnt dislike it, but it felt like a step back from the Guardians brand to me. Tried a little too hard, missed the beats, not all of them, but a lot of them felt forced. YMMV.