WFRP 4th Edition - How the game has evolved.

[TheSword]

What an awesome thread @TheSword!
I have considered DMing this for my group so many times.
We normally play 5e/4e or PF, and while my group aren't quite 3.5-min/max-players I do fear WFRP 4e isn't up their alley character option wise. But this really makes me wanna try it out.

Happy to help. If nothing else it will direct people to the kinds of options they might want to use.

 

[thullgrim]

What an awesome thread @TheSword!
I have considered DMing this for my group so many times.
We normally play 5e/4e or PF, and while my group aren't quite 3.5-min/max-players I do fear WFRP 4e isn't up their alley character option wise. But this really makes me wanna try it out.

There are still ways to min/max characters. The number of options is tremendous when you consider the ability to move between careers. The game become a system mastery game if you want it to be. That said I have the most fun when I embrace the what makes the setting tick; a group of regular people just trying to get by in life and have something a little better this week than last week.

 

[TheSword]

There are still ways to min/max characters. The number of options is tremendous when you consider the ability to move between careers. The game become a system mastery game if you want it to be. That said I have the most fun when I embrace the what makes the setting tick; a group of regular people just trying to get by in life and have something a little better this week than last week.

Absolutely. There’s just lots of different ways to do it.

For those that don't know the system Mastery would be a combination of Ability Stats advancements, skill advancements, talents and picking the careers that give you access to these efficiently.

 

[Crusadius]

So...while this thread has the WFRP fans gathered, I have a question. Does 4E (or even 2E/3E) have a different/official timeline/lore in terms of what happens to the Old World? I am speculating here but it seems that the "end of the world" lore was written because they were retiring the old Warhammer minis line to focus on WH40K.

Obviously a home game can do whatever it wants and doesn't have to follow anything "official" but it also feels like with the new content, the tales of the Old World's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

I am not well-versed in WFRP lore however so thought I'd ask the assembled brain trust here.

I would haphazard a guess that the official timeline or lore of the game that was around the time of WFRP 2E was published, which includes the Storm of Chaos, is no more and that the Enemy Within Campaign re-published and partially re-written for 4E is likely to end up with a different future than what was written of nearly 20 years ago.

That timeline ended up with the destruction of the Old World and the forging of the Realms of the Age of Sigmar.

I would say that setting and timeline was called "The Old World 1" in the Warhammer multiverse and 4E is set in "The Old World 2", a different universe that split off from the sacred timeline because your character turned left instead of right and therefore didn't run into, and get eaten by, a group of Skaven plotting nefarious plots.

 

[TheSword]

One thing I like is that WFRP since 1st edition have always encouraged and supported the idea that things might go horribly wrong. For instance the idea that there might be an immense portal to chaos in Bogenhafen and the consequences of that are played out in later installments. The same goes for it all going tits up in Empire in Ruins. Ultimately as a DM you just have to follow the logical consequences.

By the same token, I think the game can handle playing in the End Times if that period is what you want to concentrate on. There is no reason the End Times need to end with destruction. There were plenty of victories for the light along the way. Plenty of the End Times stuff would make for great RPG. The events of Vermintide for instance.

Playing four minutes to Midnight might not appeal to everyone though. As an aside the rule system does a very good job of modeling the style of the Witcher if that’s a different setting people would prefer.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

View attachment 284701

Group advantage was a game changer but as I said in my response to @Snarf Zagyg
Magic is one of the things most criticized in 4e. The channelling mechanic was seen as pointless and in many cases actively dangerous.

Because Magic tests were unopposed they were seen as too difficult until you reached a certain XP at which point they became amazing and took over. The way overcasting worked you adding an extra point of damage for every SL (10%) you beat the spell test by. You could also target an extra creature for every 2 SLs you beat the test by. So it was better to cast the Petty spell dart than most more powerful but harder to cast spells. Winds of Magic largely fixes all these issues.

Fluff wise the book contains a full history of magic in the empire, details on each lore of magic, it’s practitioners, colleges and sample NPC. Every wind has additional spells and a full specialist career for that lore of magic. One of the neatest things it adds is magical transformations called Marks. More on that in a moment.

Second sight can now be used to replicate other skills where appropriate. So you could use second sight to follow a wizard instead of using the track skill.

There are new miscast tables (You no longer get 1d10 bleeds from a nosebleed!) A very neat result is the marked by magic result which is very cool! You gain a visual and in some cases mechanical effect from getting so close to magic. Each lore has a table of these Arcane Marks. For instance a light wizard might gain eyes of pure white which gives -1 SL in fellowship tests. Or gain an aura of light that makes light sources grow brighter by 2 yards whenever you get within 20 yards of them. Minor mechanical effects but extremely characterful. One of the marks for each wind is even that you gain a talent that makes it easier to use that lore… suffused by X

A wizard can use their enchanted staff to deliver a touch spell instead of making a melee brawling check.

You get +1 SL to cast a spell that is already affected by a spell from your lore that round.

Channelling has been changed a huge amount. You don’t have to pick the spell first when you start to channel. It’s no longer necessary to channel all the power for a spell - you can now part-channel and then take the magic test in the hope you get the rest of the SLs you need (in the past you had to channel all the way or lose the spell) you can also now vent the power as an action. You can critically channel to gain WPB extra channelling SLs but also take minor miscast (unless you have aethyric attunement talent - which you probably do). If you fumble a miscast roll you only take a minor miscast (ignored if you used ingredients with the spell).

It’s also worth noting in Archives of the Empire 3 - there is an extra bonus for wizards called cants which they gain as they learn spells. These Cants use a little of the channeled energy… examples for Bright Wizards for instance include: Brighten Blaze which lets you enlarge fires and possibly set nearby creatures ablaze; Set Alight which lets you set people on fire if you hit with a melee attract and Fervent Bellow which lets you remove broken conditions from an ally. These are really neat and make channelling more flexible.

Overcasting has been changed a lot. Instead of getting flat increases to targets, area of effect, range and duration as well as stacking with increased damage you now decide to spend overcasting SLs on these things with diminishing returns and additional damage is one of these options rather than stacking on top of them. Dart is no longer the Uber-spell!

For instance you can spend 1 SL of overcasting to gain +1 target but now 5 SLs are needed to get +2 targets. A Fireball with 5 yards radius is good again.

There are lots more spells… dozens of them.

There are rules for rituals which require extended casting and special ingredients but have powerful effects. You can make power stones, summon elementals, create familiars, and imbue your own staff with enchantments (see later)

There are new downtime endeavors for brewing potions, gathering ingredients and performing rituals.

There are new careers for Beadles (A university porter), mundane alchemists, Master Vigilants (who are wizards hunting wizards) and Scryers.

There are new skills - Augury which allows you to get bonuses to a couple of tests each day if successful. Psychometry to read objects psychic residues.

There are new rules for Alchemy with a wide range of alchemical products that can be created. Including some quasi magical items like the Al-Kahest or the Compass of Meteoric Silver

There are rules for Wizards robes which aid channelling and enchanted staffs which aid casting.

Rules for writing spell scrolls.

Rules for brewing magical potions with side effects and options for combining effects (Very Harry Potteresq)

Rules for Power stones which make it easier to cast spells as a one off.

Rules for grimoires and cursed items.

Rules for incarnate elementals (very powerful summons) and the rituals to bind them.

Rules for crafting constructs and familiars and customizing them (even using them as characters that can develop)

Rules for environmental magic saturation and magical environmental corruption, storms of magic, key lines, way stones and using/crafting them. Arcane fulcrums and nexuses of power with some examples given and their powers.

There are some magical Nemesis like Egrim Van Horstman, the Blue Scribes of Tzeentch fully statted out. Also a Fimir Demonologist along with a couple of pages of nasty Fimir marsh spells. She’s called Mona Mimn.

The book finishes off with two pages of adventure outlines involving an Auction and an Apprentice. With a magical licence for a PC to fill out at the very end.

All in all this book is pretty freaking amazing for anyone wanting to play a wizard. I just wish I knew someone to DM for me!

View attachment 284695

I’m going to focus on the mechanics that the books describe because this sourcebook also has lots of fluff about living as a soldier, knightly orders, the kingdom of Tilea and the cult of Myrmidia.

In terms of careers it adds.

• Military careers (Archer, halberdier, artillerist etc)
• Knighlt order careers (Knight panther, White wolf etc)
• Speciality priest of Myrmidia.

It includes a human variant for Tilean characters.

Miracles for Myrmidian priests

If you’re bleeding at 0 wounds you have to make a challenging endurance test or fall unconscious. (This used to be automatic)
If you hit an opponent with 0 wounds they automatically take a critical hit and you add 10% to the chart.

You now roll again for hit ocation on a critical hit (previously you couldn’t get a crit on the head as it’s range was 0-9% and you get a hit on a double)

New Crit tables that make some critical hits trivial that don’t do major wounds and just add status like effects. Also extend beyond 100 so you can’t die from a normal critical hit (only ones taken at zero wounds)

New equipment related to soldiers.

New rules for qualities. Slash weapons automatically cause a bleed on a crit and you can spend advantage to do more bleeds. Spread weapons affect more people you are the further away you stand. Trip weapons can be used to knock opponents prone by spending advantage

Shields now apply their AC bonus any time you have one and defend (used to only be if you defending with a shield, which sucked it you were really good with a different weapon)

New weapons tables taking into account the new item qualities. A re-balancing overall.

Added the Pavise shield as Armour 4

New rules for Mounted Combat. Both act on the same initiative. Riders can spend their move to direct their mount’s move. They can use an action to make their mount make an action. +20 to hit a smaller target than the mount you’re riding. -10 to hit the rider if the mount is larger than you. When charging you can use the size of the mount and it’s strength instead of yours to calculate damage.

New creature traits for mounts and new hit locations for quadrupeds.

Rules for demigryph mounts.

Rules for hirelings (mercenaries, scouts, and other careers)

Rules for siege artillery and defensive structures

Rules for running pursuits

Lastly and most importantly rules for group advantage. This was one of the toughest elements to track in the original version as every creature kept its own and it could be easily gained and lost. The new rules have a player pool and a DM pool with players contributing the way they would previously have gained it… by winning an opposed test, by dealing direct damage to the enemy, by a major accomplishment (like killing a leader) or by passing a relevant test (Animal handling to spot a mounts injury for instance).

Players and the DM can spend their pool to activate a perk in battle for one round.

• 1 point to batter your opponent prone
• 1 point to perform a trick to add a relevant condition (cut their trouser belt to entangle them etc)
• 2 points to gain a +10% bonus on a test with an extra 10% for every extra point beyond 2 spent. (This used to gained automatically every round based on your current advantage)
• 2 points to flee from harm without provoking AOO
• 4 points to get an extra action in combat. (I see this used the most as players save the advantage and use it to get extra attacks or a free reload)

You can also gain or lose advantage through some talents but also if one side is more dominant than the other (having higher ground, vastly outnumbering etc. you can then take one point from the weaker sides pool and give it to the dominant ones.

You can seed the advantage pools with starting points if one side has an advantage (like a particularly clever ambush)

The instability creature trait has been changed to take this into consideration.

The assess action has been added that allows you to gain 2 or 3 advantage for your sides pool.

You no longer get advantage for charging, instead getting +10% to the first melee test you make in the combat.

Talents Beat Blade, Distract, Drilled, Flee!, Gunner, and Rapid Reload, Shieldsman, Relentless, and Reversal are re-written to account for the new advantage rules.

Roughrider talent improves mounted combat

Strike to injure let’s you roll twice on the crit table and pick the best.

Finally there are downtime endeavors you can practice to develop a weapon technique you can use once in the next adventure. For instance the Leitdorf Defense that lets you make a weapon attack at -10 but the opponent can’t you any skill advances or talents when defending. But you also take 1d10 damage - TB. A risky but powerful move against a skilled opponent to baffle them with your unexpected attack. I love Warhammer!

So that is the first book to update you with. Lots of new stuff and some good changes to existing stuff… simpler shields, head critical, group advantage and more balanced weapons. I’ll come onto Magic shortly as this one took longer than I expected.

Looks like 4e needs a new edition

 

[TheSword]

Looks like 4e needs a new edition

It’s unlikely because it’s all licensed product and WFRP editions have always had quite long runs and each been published by a different company. Each new edition has been a massive departure from the previous one in both rules and style.

A lot of the rules I’ve described have been additions but it would definitely be useful to collect the changes to the core rules (armour, group advantage, channelling, overcasting, falling unconscious etc) into one place.

 

[schneeland]

A WFPR 4.5e/4e revised core rule book would be nice indeed. That's probably also the only thing Cubicle 7 would do as long as the edition is still going strong.

I'm wondering a bit what the development of the Old World tabletop game will mean for the RPG. Seems to be at least another year way, but still.

 

[TheSword]

A WFPR 4.5e/4e revised core rule book would be nice indeed. That's probably also the only thing Cubicle 7 would do as long as the edition is still going strong.

I'm wondering a bit what the development of the Old World tabletop game will mean for the RPG. Seems to be at least another year way, but still.

Don’t forget they are intentionally going back to the Age of Three Emperors for that game. So it won’t be in the current timeline. It might generate a source book in WFRP or a spin off game from Cubicle 7, or whole new game from a new company or a brand new edition. I suspect the first or second though. Everything I see makes me think WFRP is doing well.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

A lot of the rules I’ve described have been additions but it would definitely be useful to collect the changes to the core rules (armour, group advantage, channelling, overcasting, falling unconscious etc) into one place.

A WFPR 4.5e/4e revised core rule book would be nice indeed. That's probably also the only thing Cubicle 7 would do as long as the edition is still going strong.

They really need this. I think the spread of more or less essential rules updates across various books are a big barrier to on boarding new players. I know I won't invest in 4e before there's a 4.5.