Still Searching for "That" System

[Retreater]

PF2, stick to easy/moderate encounters until they get their sea legs.

I'm worried that PF2 is still too rules-dense for these players. Even if I "take it easy" on them with the challenges, the challenge of building a character and playing the game is pretty steep for new players.

Run some FKR or rules-lite games. There are a ton, and they cover any every genre and interest. And if you don't like what you see, make your own (I've done this a number of times, and it usually doesn't take that long).

I don't trust myself with rules-lite games. I can stare at the FATE rules and just be completely bewildered. I don't know how to understand them.

Are there any that work except for not being survivable at first level? If so, can you just start at 2nd or 3rd level, or at first but with the 2nd or 3rd level HP equivalent?

I'm not sure. The ones I've tried (OSE, S&W) are still very challenging to balance, because "balance" seems antithetical to the concept of OSR games.
Having grown up with TSR-era AD&D, I don't know how any of my PCs survived to mid-levels. Did we all play differently then?

My go-to system these days is Broken Compass/Outgunned (Outgunned is sort of a refinement or second edition of the BC rules).

I've never heard of Broken Compass. I'll take a look at it.

Fantasy AGE or Modern AGE

I forgot I have this one! (I should add it to my list of games.) Maybe I can dig it out of storage and see what I've been missing.

I would also have suggested Savage Worlds and specifically Savage Pathfinder, but I see you have both in your list. So I was wondering if there are additional criteria that should be considered.

I guess - in my mind - Savage Worlds is still too crunchy for what I'm thinking. My experience is that even the most basic Savage Worlds is exceeds 5e in complexity, and 5e represents the threshold of what I think these players can handle.

 

[payn]

I'm worried that PF2 is still too rules-dense for these players. Even if I "take it easy" on them with the challenges, the challenge of building a character and playing the game is pretty steep for new players.

What is their system experience with? I don't see PF2 being any more difficult than 5E. Yes, its not a rules lite system, but its not a difficult one to learn. Basically, the target numbers are on the character sheet, and are rarely modified by a +/- 1-3. Leveling is a cinch after first level. You add 1 to all your numbers and pick a feat from a bucket of about 1-4 choices.

If 5E is too much, I'd likely start looking at a board game like Heroquest or Descent.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I've mentioned this before, so I will say it again.

Run some FKR or rules-lite games. There are a ton, and they cover any every genre and interest. And if you don't like what you see, make your own (I've done this a number of times, and it usually doesn't take that long).

Its great to take a breather, have a good time, and get yourself and your group refreshed and recharged and reinvigorated.

Personally, I love campaigns. I love zero-to-hero. But if you've been doing it for a while, give yourself a break. Instead of all the stress and aggravation of trying to find the next perfect system to run a long campaign, just try out a few things to run for limited periods of time, and have some fun. Get back in touch with the fun, before starting up another long commitment.

Hear me now and believe me later - long-running campaigns are great. But before you dive into yet another system to use for a long time, try getting back to the essence of why we all do this ... having fun. Sometimes, it's good to get in touch with that.

I would echo this but suggest Warhammer. My experience was with WHFRPG 1e, I know it has a reputation as a character killer and it is somewhat deserved but while, if you have enough fights, your character will die. It was not (in my experience) a party killer. You can ignore much of the lore and run it as a low magic D&D style campaign, where fighting should be the last resort.

 

[schneeland]

I guess - in my mind - Savage Worlds is still too crunchy for what I'm thinking. My experience is that even the most basic Savage Worlds is exceeds 5e in complexity, and 5e represents the threshold of what I think these players can handle.

Ok, thanks for clarifying! I personally find Savage Worlds to be about as crunchy as 5e (only that the crunch is more equally distributed across the game), so I thought it might still be ok.
If you want to go lighter, things do become a little difficult, at least if you want to stay in the trad game space (Year Zero/Forbidden Lands is lighter, but also more deadly; 2d20, at least to me, is more crunchy and the rules are not that easy to parse; Warhammer Fantasy, at least in its current iteration is also rather crunchy; and OSR/NSR games are out because of a lack of mechanical options and often rather high lethality; and I assume something like The One Ring is out because of the tighter thematic focus).

If you are willing look at more non-traditional experiences:

• Dungeon World, as an example of a PbtA game, is pretty light and its playbooks are easy to grasp, and characters have a number of interesting options through those playbooks; it's also close to D&D in many ways (which is both a blessing and a curse, since the game will only really shine if you are willing to let go of running it exactly like D&D)
• FATE gives you a lot of flexibility in how you design your characters and it's mechanically not that complicated - it does require you to think differently about the game and people need to be comfortable with taking more of an author stance and thinking about how to frame scenes.
• Freeform Universal, the system behind Neon-City Overdrive, also gives you a lot of flexibility in how to design your characters without devolving into heavy crunch, but here you would have to build your own fantasy system (at least I'm not aware of an existing one)

The one thing that be fit is the Cypher system. I'm personally not the biggest fan of some design decisions and generally the way Monte Cook Games does "weird" doesn't really resonate with me, but IMO it's lighter than D&D.

Also, if you are willing to wait a bit, Robert Schwalb is currently running a Kickstarter for Shadow of the Weird Wizard, a version of his Shadow of the Demon Lord system that is more in line with generic D&D fantasy. That is, if the main reason to not consider SotDL a good option is its setting. If you would also rank it too crunchy, then I'd really suggest looking at something like Dungeon World.

 

[Retreater]

What is their system experience with? I don't see PF2 being any more difficult than 5E. Yes, its not a rules lite system, but its not a difficult one to learn. Basically, the target numbers are on the character sheet, and are rarely modified by a +/- 1-3. Leveling is a cinch after first level. You add 1 to all your numbers and pick a feat from a bucket of about 1-4 choices.

If 5E is too much, I'd likely start looking at a board game like Heroquest or Descent.

I've actually suggested HeroQuest to them, but they want an RPG.

We have 3 teenagers between 14-17, who have some familiarity with 5e (but I wouldn't even describe them as having it "down" despite a year of weekly play). Some of them appear to be very weak at math, using their fingers to count attack bonuses and stuff.
Then there are 2 adults who are pretty strong with 5e. I wouldn't consider either a master of any other systems.

Here are some things off the top of my head that would stump them with PF2: Multiple Attack Penalties, Weapon Traits (Volley, Sweep, Agile, etc.), remembering Conditions (Frightened, Enfeebled, etc.), Extra Critical Effects (Deadly, Brutal, etc.), Tracking Magic Items, Diagonal Movement and Measuring, Cover/Concealment/steps of invisibility.

I would echo this but suggest Warhammer. My experience was with WHFRPG 1e, I know it has a reputation as a character killer and it is somewhat deserved but while, if you have enough fights, your character will die. It was not (in my experience) a party killer. You can ignore much of the lore and run it as a low magic D&D style campaign, where fighting should be the last resort.

Oh, but they love fighting. That's their major pillar of play.

 

[payn]

I've actually suggested HeroQuest to them, but they want an RPG.

We have 3 teenagers between 14-17, who have some familiarity with 5e (but I wouldn't even describe them as having it "down" despite a year of weekly play). Some of them appear to be very weak at math, using their fingers to count attack bonuses and stuff.
Then there are 2 adults who are pretty strong with 5e. I wouldn't consider either a master of any other systems.

Here are some things off the top of my head that would stump them with PF2: Multiple Attack Penalties, Weapon Traits (Volley, Sweep, Agile, etc.), remembering Conditions (Frightened, Enfeebled, etc.), Extra Critical Effects (Deadly, Brutal, etc.), Tracking Magic Items, Diagonal Movement and Measuring, Cover/Concealment/steps of invisibility.

Oh, but they love fighting. That's their major pillar of play.

There has got to be something as simple as OSR but not as lethal out there. Im just not thinking of anything.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't trust myself with rules-lite games. I can stare at the FATE rules and just be completely bewildered. I don't know how to understand them.

Stop worrying, stop reading, and just do it. Really. It's something that seems hard, until you do it.

Also, a consider rules-lite to be games that have less than 5 pages for the game, total.

 

[Fenris-77]

Dragonbane might work for you. It's pretty intuitive.

 

[Bill Zebub]

• Interesting Options – you can do more than swing a sword or cast one spell (if you want to interact with the game that way) [this also cuts out most OSR systems]

At the risk of thread derailment, I think this is the opposite of OSR, but also a common (mis)perception.

One of the major appeals of OSR, to me anyway, is that you aren't limited by what you can do on your character sheet. Sure, in combat the only button to push on your character sheet is "attack". But:
a) It is almost always a good idea in OSR to use your noggin to find ways to avoid combat
b) If you have to fight, it's almost always a good idea in OSR to use your noggin find ways to make combat grossly unfair to the monsters

Now, if what you really mean is that you like having "special abilities" unique to your class to invoke during combat, then I think you are correct.

 

[schneeland]

There has got to be something as simple as OSR but not as lethal out there. Im just not thinking of anything.

Now that you say it: I think Worlds Without Number might qualify.