D&D 5E Player consent required -spoilers for new adv book

Status
Not open for further replies.

BookTenTiger

He / Him
View attachment 294552

I haven’t seen it myself but apparently this is from the new adventure book….?

To flat out “Require it”.

I’m not for WotC requiring me to do anything. Suggest maybe. I think I just don’t like the wording.

And of course they whole long discussion of players not having real consequences for their actions. Mess with Illithids and you might get your mind ate.

As long as everyone has fun I guess. Seems a tad unfair to everyone in the long run though when you can establish that any bad choice or action or simply bad luck can be undone just because…

I as a DM have many times prevented a character death because I felt it wasn’t right at the time. Usually to prevent a TPK but telling me I HAVE to do it. Nah.

Hopefully this works:
Edit: Full image clarification pic
I'm curious if you would feel the same way about a rule in a player-facing book that said "DM approval is required."

Like let's say a player-facing book had rules for playing a Mind Flayer, but said this wouldn't be required for every campaign so "DM approval is required."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Generally discussing things that might be objectionable to participants at the sessions zero is a good practice. However I want to elaborate on why I think this specific thing has a sidebar, whilst there is not one for numerous other unpleasant things that might come up in the game, such as character death.

Firstly, I think most people understand that as a default, by the rules of the game characters can die. They probably also understand that the characters can be afflicted by various temporary status effects. None of this comes as surprise to anyone, though of course individual groups can alter this default state.

In D&D character concept and character builds are a big deal, and most players spend a lot of time coming up with a character they'd like to play. It is not surprising at all that permanently altering that concept (and into direction many might consider icky) without the player permission might be unwelcome. It doesn't necessarily mean that this would even be somehow traumatising or anything like that. It is just not fun and sucks the enjoyment out of the game. "This is no longer the character I wanted to play; if I wanted to be infected by the Far Realm, I'd have rolled an Old One Warlock to begin with!"

That being said, body horror can be genuinely traumatising to some people, and you should discuss it at the session zero.
 
Last edited:

mamba

Legend
I see it as quite the opposite: making a big deal out of (at most) just another thing.
I don’t see asking a question before playing the campaign as a big deal, regardless of how important you / I think that question is

Heck, you might ask them what snacks they like, that is certainly no more effort either

Not every game is for everyone.
sure, but just maybe it would have been better to know that beforehand
 

I'd probably play a new character. And I'm  always fine with that.
Not everyone is going to feel that way, especially if it's a character they've spent years on and collected various 'good' items on. When you're level 10, are you going to want to swap and get, per DMG p 38, 500gp + 1d10x25gp, plus normal starting equipment? Doubt it. You're going to want to make a new character equivalent to what you are replacing
 

Gonna chime in to agree that this kind of sidebar is useful and necessary.

Ultimately, if I'm running or playing in a D&D game, it's a leisure time activity, not an exposure therapy session. It's not my responsibility to make myself or a player confront something one of us finds personally troubling.
 

I always just assumed signs like that were there mostly to keep insurance companies and the legal department happy, so the ride operators couldn't be sued if something went wrong.
They probably are, and I think that's why it's kinda relevant. Yes, it's protecting the park and operators, but it's doing it by drawing attention to circumstances that could/will cause harm, and you are opting in (giving consent) to .

I'll give a relatively local example. The haunted house that has a 40-page consent form, requiring a doctor's note and safe word. Scariest haunted house in Tennessee requires 40-page waiver, doctor’s note, safe word
 

HaroldTheHobbit

Adventurer
So, in a game that to a large degree is about player characters being serial thieves and robbers, going on regular grissly murder sprees sometimes bordering on genocide, I need to get consent from every player for including a possibility of physically transformative effects in case they are overly sensitive to it?

This is silly beyond reason, I'm very happy I don't play D&D anymore.
Since there where some replies to this post, I need to answer.

"We are no thieves, we are heroes fighting for a good cause". If you ever took that +1 Longsword from the evil cults stash (the evil cult that you murdered), that's de facto theft. It's not like you asked them to give it to you, or bought it from them and kept the receipt. That you construct a subjective moral defense for stealing doesn't matter.

"We don't murder, we kill in the name of good". A significant part of the global population see killing another person as one of the worst moral taboos and call it murder. Killing another being because you personally think it is the morally right thing to do doesn't make it right. In war, both side kill in the name of good, and/or in the name of god.

Besides, the majority of D&D rules is about combat - other than a few lines about non-lethal damage, it's about murder. A significant part of the spell rules and descriptions concern how to freeze, fry, crush and mind control your opponents.

My point - if it wasn't clear earlier - is that D&Ds foundation is about murder in more or less innovative ways. You may call it adventure, "expeditions" or problem solving, as many colonialists, assassins and hitmen has done through the ages, it doesn't matter.

I then find it interesting that a person don't have any problem playing a game that at it's core is about committing murder and theft, but get offended/scared/re-traumatized when being mind controlled or transformed into an alien. There's absolutely nothing wrong reacting negatively to things in the game, it's just a fascinating psychological phenomenon that seems like a moral dichotomy to me. "So, in this campaign we will probably murder a couple of hundred sentient beings, commit home invasion and steal lots and lots of stuff. But I make sure no-one cast a mind control spell at you." Again, it's nothing wrong, do whatever make everyone have fun at the table. But it's a psychological conundrum.

But then again, in all fairness, from what I've read about a bunch of WotC's campaigns the last years they are working on releasing stuff that isn't murder-and-theft focused. That doesn't change what activities the rulebooks implicate as major and the accepted way of doing things, through their content.
 


Anti-inclusive content
I don’t think GMs are physiologists. Obviously we should treat our friends at the table with compassion but dealing I don’t think it is fair for the gm or the group, not do I think it is healthy fot the person experiencing or the hobby in generally to go down the road you are prescribing. I have had trauma. It is a real thing and very serious, but not something you deal with at the game table in this manner. It is something to seek treatment for. And other people shouldn’t bear the strain of you having these kinds of traumatic triggers and having yo completely their every day behavior (just because you can’t handle bats or thunder, doesn’t mean they should no longer enjoy them). Also traumatic triggers are rarely as simple or concrete as we make them out to be in these conversations. I really think the hobby has started to fetishized pop psychology around this to an extremely unhealthy degree that is also disruptive to the game itself. It is also entirely okay to take a break from gaming if you are dealing with trauma. But we really need to step back and start critiquing some of the assumptions that have become default around in this stuff in done quarters of the hobby

That was probably the most valuable post for me.

Formalized safety tools, assumptions about how trauma works (and how triggers work), etc. I also think this is training and priming people to overreact to things at the table

For all the talk about caring, and being sensitive to others, many people seemed uninterested in paying heed to the above account.
Or, you know, people's actual experiences with trauma. Your friend getting offended about something you said is not a traumatic response. Speak with therapists and people that have been affected by trauma before you enthusiastically parade sidebars as solutions.

But it's much easier to speculate how friends meeting to tell a fantastic story might be harmful somewhere, somehow.
As an added bonus, it signals our virtue - and clearly anyone who doesn't subscribe to that narrative must be some sort of monster themselves. Please.

I think if we really care about the issue, we shouldn't trivialise it and we should not speculate about what people with trauma need.
That's what's harmful. So in that sense, superficial box-ticking exercises such as sidebars and "asking for consent for a,b,c,d...z" may be actually doing more harm than good.

The group of people that plays the game is best placed to find a consensus about what works for them. The thought police can go and find other, better hobbies.
 

If you don’t know someone has a phobia or trauma, that’s one thing. But once you do, the social calculus changes. A friend does not intentionally expose a friend to something that may reasonably be expected to cause emotional pain, regardless of the context.

For years, one of my best friends and I had a running joke. At some point, he asked me to end it because it bothered his wife deeply. Because it bothered her, it had started bothering him. I honored his request. I didn’t continue the joke, even when it was just the two of us hanging out.

This isn’t pop psychology, it’s basic human empathy.

And I’m definitely not talking about using gaming as therapy, especially by amateurs. I’m talking about avoiding pushing a friend’s buttons instead of messing with them in order to run a game. Why make a buddy squirm for fun?



Look, if people have a phobia or whatever, that is something that can be dealt with on a case by case basis, from group to group and handled by the person suffering from the phobia and their therapist. However it isn't as simple as person has phobia so you need to establish a list of things they can't be exposed to. And I think the growing issue is you are taking something that is very personal, very individual, varies a lot by people and by play group, and issuing guidelines or rules for how people should handle it at the table. I don't think there is one true way here. But I do think many of the assumptions here are making the issue worse not better. Again, like I said, we should be compassionate to our friends, but let people negotiate these kinds of social concerns in a way that they are comfortable doing and that fits their group and their needs. Not every group is going to be able to accommodate these kinds of requests (especially if it is something important in the game that is being avoided).

If a person is having such issues with trauma or phobias, that this leads to problems at the table, or leads them to have an episode of some kind: that is something for them to deal with with professional help. I had very severe trauma at one point and I realized I needed to take a break from gaming and also would occasionally have to excuse myself from the table. I am not talking about telling people to toughen up if they are going through a serious mental health crisis or anything like that. But I am saying we have moved so far in the direction of structuring play and the hobby around mental health concerns, I think it isn't healthy for any one who is involved.

And yes if a friend in my group is like 'hey I have this extreme phobia and it bothers me a lot if X comes up in play', I am not going to make them uncomfortable, and I am very likely going to help however I can, but I also don't think the best solution can be reduced to having the group automatically avoid whatever it is that might bother someone in all cases, nor is it the best solution to begin with the assumption that you have people in your group with such extreme phobias that the mention of an element will trigger them. Everyone is different. I have a fear of heights. No amount of people falling off cliffs in an RPG is going to bother me. No movie with mountain climbing will bother me. But scaling a fairly small wall, would be crippling. I have a friend who is afraid of spiders. He gets a little jittery if you start talking about them, but he can handle them in a game. If he sees them in a movie he has a much harder time. We have been gaming together and seeing movies together forever. There isn't a formal procedure for us to follow around his fear of spiders. I don't think you can issue a single path on that (he and I are friends and know how to negotiate this stuff naturally in conversation). And we also know how to playfully bust each others chops about it too, which is okay.

Simply ask if anyone has any issues they’d rather avoid being included in the game. You could even make the query private.

And that could happen while you’re in the planning stages.

Think of it like the warning signs you see in certain amusement parks. Besides asking about your height or weight for basic safety precautions, some do ask about other health conditions:

1694334097366.jpeg

This is the increasing norm in the hobby I am talking about. People have been having conversations before play since forever, and how a conversation might play out, when it is appropriate, etc, that will vary from group to group. But making the default that we begin with an assumption like this and warn people of every potential concern is bad for the hobby to embrace as something everyone is supposed to do. One, it doesn't even work. Triggers are often not merely as 1-1 or concrete as people think. Two, physical dangers are very different concerns from mental health issues and I think equating the two is a growing problem in the culture and the hobby (and not saying mental health is not serious but it isn't the same as a person with blood pressure who might die due to something like riding a roller coaster). You aren't actually making things better for people with mental health issues, you are making them seem like weak, fragile people who can't deal with goblins coming up in a game (and the kinds of assumptions operating in these discussions, in the promotion of safety tools, heavily exaggerate and distort what it is like to suffer form mental illness or from trauma-------we are treating people with mental illness like they don't have agency).

The other major problem here is you are going from something that is genuinely reasonable (being concerned about peoples mental health) and kind of pathologizing it at the table, but baking it in as an assumption (i.e. you start play by asking people what they would like to avoid). Again this goes back to my point about priming. Now you are effectively making adventures and settings by committee. Which some people like, but some people really hate because it takes away things like surprise. But you are also encouraging people to give you things they don't want to see at the table (and it is pretty clear in these conversations that a lot of the people who weigh in aren't really taking about true crippling phobias or trauma but are in fact exaggerating----this whole conversation encourages people to exaggerate is part of the issue).

That isn't to say someone who is experiencing a mental health crisis should be ignored, dismissed or any of that. It is to say, you are not a therapist, game designers are not therapists, the gaming group is not a therapy group. Individual groups should deal with this stuff in ways that make sense to them, not in ways that are dictated to them by a person or game designer who doesn't know them, doesn't know their friends, and isn't even technically qualified to dispense mental health advice.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top