D&D 5E Sell me on 5th…

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You have to have someone who is both willing to dominate the game AND being allowed to do so.
"I want to play a druid with Natural Spell" is sufficient to be "willing" to dominate the game, and very few DMs I know of are willing to ban Natural Spell since, as stated, it is PHB-only.

Likewise, someone wanting to play a Cleric with cool domains, like Luck, or who happens to worship a war god with a nice weapon (which can be purely innocent, no desire to break the game.)

3.X removed that guardrail.

But nearly everyone I’ve played D&D with started with those edition-based guardrails, and either consciously limited themselves, didn’t realize they were limiting themselves, or the DM imposed those mechanics from older editions into 3.5.
Ah. Then yes, that explains a lot. If you don't actually play 3.X, but instead play "3.X as if it were 2e/etc.," then several of the problems go away, because that is how it was designed. They removed the guardrails, but still assumed most of those guardrails were present.

Still doesn't alter much of the "Druid with Natural Spell"/"Cleric with stupidly powerful domains" thing, since those can both happen purely innocently and, at least for the former, without any need for non-PHB sources. But it does..."fix," for a given definition of "fix"...some of the other classes, if you simply fail to actually use the rules as written for them.

I would say it depends on your definition of effective.

As for whether it requires a bit more thought than designing a spellcaster? I honestly can’t say. I put a LOT of thought into almost all of my 3.X PCs. How much depended on how inspired I was by all the factors contributing to creating PCs for a given campaign.
It requires more thought per performance, at the very least. Again: Druid with even moderately smart spell choices, form choices, and Natural Spell--all of which is pure PHB content--can easily outperform a Fighter. I mean, for goodness' sake, their bear companion is already almost as good as the Fighter is all by herself!
 

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Sulicius

Adventurer
5e is a pretty good system with more content than any other TTRPG system. It has a vast, helpful community and you have an easy time finding players.

That is all I need from a TTRPG.
 





Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
"I want to play a druid with Natural Spell" is sufficient to be "willing" to dominate the game, and very few DMs I know of are willing to ban Natural Spell since, as stated, it is PHB-only.
“PHB only” is no guarantee in my experience. Going back to the late 70s, I’ve played at tables that barred Paladins, Monks, Bards, Assassins, all races except humans, all races except humans, elves and dwarves, certain alignments, and even certain spells.

As for Natural Spell, no one has chosen it. I’ve played several 3.X Druids, and never took it- it never meshed with my character concepts.
Likewise, someone wanting to play a Cleric with cool domains, like Luck, or who happens to worship a war god with a nice weapon (which can be purely innocent, no desire to break the game.)
I’ve never played Luck clerics nor been in a group where someone did, AFAIK. I have played War clerics. Didn’t break the games.
Ah. Then yes, that explains a lot. If you don't actually play 3.X, but instead play "3.X as if it were 2e/etc.," then several of the problems go away, because that is how it was designed. They removed the guardrails, but still assumed most of those guardrails were present.
Let’s not be uncharitable with our rhetoric, please.

It’s still playing 3.X. Especially when the players are fully conscious of what options are available. And I know how to design many of the builds like Pun-Pun and CoDzilla. That I chose not to do so does not mean I’m not playing 3.X. It means I’m playing the characters I actually want to play.

Go back upthread to my example of the 2-headed Fey Hengeyokai fighter or the “Swamp Thing” Geomancer. You can’t make those PCs without understanding how the system’s various parts interact.

You also can’t make them in prior editions. They’re purely 3.X constructs.
Still doesn't alter much of the "Druid with Natural Spell"/"Cleric with stupidly powerful domains" thing, since those can both happen purely innocently and, at least for the former, without any need for non-PHB sources. But it does..."fix," for a given definition of "fix"...some of the other classes, if you simply fail to actually use the rules as written for them.
“Can happen” =/= “Will happen”.

Choosing not to use a spell because it doesn’t fit your character concept is not “fail(ing) to actually use the rules as written for them.”
It requires more thought per performance, at the very least. Again: Druid with even moderately smart spell choices, form choices, and Natural Spell--all of which is pure PHB content--can easily outperform a Fighter. I mean, for goodness' sake, their bear companion is already almost as good as the Fighter is all by herself!
Denigrating the choice of choosing to realize the character in your head as opposed to DPR optimization (etc.) isn’t going to win me over to your POV. You do realize that, don’t you?

There’s no end of resources on how to optimize spellcasters. I actually own one book laying out the math for optimizing 3.X PHB Sorcerers & Wizards. I first used it to see how closely my friend’s Wizards hewed to having an optimal spell list. (His choices were virtually identical to those in the book.) Besides that, I’ve used it to see if any of the ideas within worked for any of my concepts. It’s helped with one or two.

But by and large, it just gave me minor tweaks, or helped me decide between similar options. And no, not always to the more powerful option.

If I were only interested in optimization, I’d never have played a Sorcerer in scale mail with a maul in a PHB + 2 other sourcebook’s campaign. I wouldn’t have played an Indiana Jones inspired Spellsword with a Diviner as his casting class.
 


Let’s not be uncharitable with our rhetoric, please.

It’s still playing 3.X. Especially when the players are fully conscious of what options are available. And I know how to design many of the builds like Pun-Pun and CoDzilla. That I chose not to do so does not mean I’m not playing 3.X. It means I’m playing the characters I actually want to play.

Go back upthread to my example of the 2-headed Fey Hengeyokai fighter or the “Swamp Thing” Geomancer. You can’t make those PCs without understanding how the system’s various parts interact.

You also can’t make them in prior editions. They’re purely 3.X constructs.

“Can happen” =/= “Will happen”.

Choosing not to use a spell because it doesn’t fit your character concept is not “fail(ing) to actually use the rules as written for them.”

Denigrating the choice of choosing to realize the character in your head as opposed to DPR optimization (etc.) isn’t going to win me over to your POV. You do realize that, don’t you?
The thing is that there are two different types of character building here. "Can I make this and have it compile?" and "I am supposed to be playing someone who risks their life on a daily basis. Can I make it as a competent adventurer for their level right up the levels?" And when I look at Geomancer builds (unless you're playing games with Ur-Priest) is essentially an adventurer that is all hat and no cattle.

Essentially the problem with them is the same as the problem with the Mystic Theurge (unless you're playing games with the Ur-priest) - prerequisite: the ability to cast second level arcane spells and second level divine spells. If you go in through the obvious route that means that at level 7 you're a wizard 3/cleric (or druid) 3/Geomancer 1. At this point you have: BAB +3, the ability to cast second level arcane and divine spells (when the primary casters are on 4th level spells and can cast about as many as you) and only have Spell Versatility 0 so as an arcanist you can only wear armour and cast cantrips. To me it feels as if almost any build is all hat and no cattle unless you're doing something really clever with it - but a lot of that is the difficulty you set the game at. If it's easy it's not a worry,
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The thing is that there are two different types of character building here. "Can I make this and have it compile?" and "I am supposed to be playing someone who risks their life on a daily basis. Can I make it as a competent adventurer for their level right up the levels?" And when I look at Geomancer builds (unless you're playing games with Ur-Priest) is essentially an adventurer that is all hat and no cattle.
While I make oddball characters- infamously so in my group*- I do try to make sure they can contribute to the party’s successes. This is where “system mastery” comes in. My aforementioned Geomancer kept the high level party running through RttToEE with his healing capabilities largely due to the original CompDiv version of Sacred Healing and Extra Turning.** (Remember, the only other healer in the party had 1 level of cleric.) His bodily-grown CLW tubers (potions) also came in handy more than once.

He did other things besides, as well. His elemental protection spells often prevented the party from being more than slightly scuffed in several encounters, and Earthen Grasp, Stony Grasp and EBT rendered some casters helpless. His earth elemental familiar impacted combats. His command over certain elementals & plants came in handy.







* in our group, oddball characters are called “(my real world name)”-style characters, especially those whose shticks are not immediately apparent.

** Sacred Healing = Use Turn Undead attempt to give FH3 for (1+Cha bonus)rounds in a 60' burst. CompDiv p. 84. FWIW, I asked WotC if the PHB2 version was intended to be a replacement for the CompDiv version, and was told that it wasn’t- there was a failure to catch the existence of another feat with the same name in a previous product.
 

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