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are Lions size Large?

enrious

Registered User
Personally, I'd toss lions and tigers in the Large category without batting an eye.

Why?

Size in D&D is comprised of more than just height/length/weight - it's also a matter of combat prowess/projection.

Yeah, so what if a typical lion is "only" 450lbs? Who cares of a tiger is "only" 7' if you count the tail?

That's 450lbs. of muscle, claws, teeth, and attitude slamming into you.

That's a 6' (guessing) monster of muscle, claws, and teeth not just thinking of turning you into dinner, but trying to remember if he made reservations for the good table by the river - the one with the nice view.

Then there's the other consideration - D&D grids (if we're talking 3.5+) - you don't have nice 1x2 squares representing a critter like a horse - you have a honkin' 2x2 creature, of which only part of it represents the actual physical creature. [as a side note, bear in mind that with a Large creature, you're essentially saying that they are capable of attacking two opponents (say by a standard attack and by an AoO) 30' apart from one another]

The other part of it represents where it *could* be (without facing, a creature threatens all four sides), thus you have to imagine that the creature is moving about in the space afforded its size.

Lastly, I think people are getting too hung up on a chart that clearly says it lists "typical" specimens.

All that said, I think there are valid reasons not to make them Large and I certainly wouldn't object if my DM declared the Medium. Flip a coin and go on with the game. :)
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
That's 450lbs. of muscle, claws, teeth, and attitude slamming into you.

Or, to put it another way, if a 450lb lion asked you to call it "Large," would you argue with it?







(Note to self: develop line of strap-on "Cuban Heels" to sell to Lions with size issues.)
 

renau1g

First Post
I'd agree with Tigers being large, after all, He-man rode one....

Heman83.jpg


Edit: Oh and I found this picture of a guy riding a lion, so clearly they have to be large for a medium person to ride them, plus he has armor on so he's probably an adventurer.

man_riding-_lion_1.jpg
 


this old photo is one of the infamous Tsavo maneating lions killed by J.H. Patterson back in the old colonial days. Sure looks like a Large to me...
 

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Klaus

First Post
Length, yes, the tail gets factored in...but at 700lbs, that is more than 3x the mass of a typical human male.



At that weight, they fall solidly within the mass listed for Large creatures.
The moment you have Medium gnolls, minotaurs and goliaths, tigers and lions have to be Medium.

As for He-Man: he's not riding a tiger, he's riding Battle Cat! Power of Grayskull FTW!

And regarding the dude riding the lion: there are Medium horses that people ride everyday. The "Must be one size category larger" rule needs to go.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The moment you have Medium gnolls, minotaurs and goliaths, tigers and lions have to be Medium.

1) Minotaurs were Large up until 4Ed, not Medium. And AFAIK, neither of the other races you just listed exceed 500lbs, unlke Lions. A typical 3.5Ed Gnoll gives up 200lbs to a Lion- the cat has 2/3rds more mass. That's like placing a 10year old in the same boxing division as Mike Tyson.

2) As pointed out, the chart itself says those are approximations, and actual size designation for a particular creature may be +- what the chart indicates. The sizing rule is fuzzy, not strictly defined.

3) adult Tigers are bigger than anything else on that list by a couple hundred pounds

All that, coupled with things like Powerful Build, means there really is no "have to be Medium" thing going on.
 
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Klaus

First Post
1) Minotaurs were Large up until 4Ed, not Medium. And AFAIK, neither of the other races you just listed exceed 500lbs, unlke Lions. A typical 3.5Ed Gnoll gives up 200lbs to a Lion- the cat has 2/3rds more mass. That's like placing a 10year old in the same boxing division as Mike Tyson.

2) As pointed out, the chart itself says those are approximations, and actual size designation for a particular creature may be +- what the chart indicates. The sizing rule is fuzzy, not strictly defined.

3) adult Tigers are bigger than anything else on that list by a couple hundred pounds

All that, coupled with things like Powerful Build, means there really is no "have to be Medium" thing going on.
My point regarding gnolls and minotaurs is that those were Large in D&D up until 3e, when the "Medium" category was expanded to allow, for example, for a 7'8", 340-pound goliath, or for a 7'5", 350-pound minotaur, to remain medium.

It's more than just "mass", it's also the space the creature takes in combat. A lion or tiger can fight effectivelly (and in fact prefer to fight) in close-quarters, drawing prey to themselves, instead of keeping them at bay.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
My point regarding gnolls and minotaurs is that those were Large in D&D up until 3e, when the "Medium" category was expanded to allow, for example, for a 7'8", 340-pound goliath, or for a 7'5", 350-pound minotaur, to remain medium.
I reiterate that you're simply incorrect here.

Minotaurs only became Medium in 4Ed- WEAK!- the 3.5Ed versions are twice as massive as you state, being size Large, despite starting off at 7' in height.

Minotaur :: d20srd.org
SRD
Minotaur
Size/Type: Large Monstrous Humanoid

A minotaur stands more than 7 feet tall and weighs about 700 pounds.

They are short for their size class, but more than twice as massive as a 3.5 Gnoll.
Gnoll :: d20srd.org
SRD
Gnoll
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Gnoll)

A gnoll is about 7½ feet tall and weighs 300 pounds.

Gnolls are built like Shaquille O'Neal, Minotaurs are roughly the same stature, but pack an additional Shaq in bones & muscle mass onto that frame.

Unless Minotaurs' bones & muscle are actually denser than Gnolls'- a possibility, no doubt- the Minotaur by necessity takes up much more volume than a Gnoll does in every dimension except vertically.

Ergo, Large, not Medium.
 
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GameDaddy

Explorer
I'd go with Large for Lions and Tigers. Ditto for Minotaurs and some Gnolls as well. My 28mm Minotaur minis are 8-9' tall and some Gnolls 7'+.

Video - Tiger attacks man riding on top of Elephant!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKFioMyieQ]THE famous tiger attack video! - YouTube[/ame]

P.S. Am amazed the guides are using Jungle Book rulers to measure the Tiger Pawprints ;o
 
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