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Internet Saved the Tabletop Genre

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
(thread title to be sung to the tune of Video Killed the Radio Star)

In another thread an ENworlder named Upper Krust suggested that 4E should incorporate these elements:

1) Less/No Book-keeping, meaning more play time.
2) Faster game.
3) Easier to create for.
4) Less daunting to new players.
5) More visually attractive.
6) Collectibility.
7) Better from a tactical viewpoint.

I think all 7 elements can best be served by integrating online functionality into D&D. I'm not suggesting that 4E should be exclusively online, or require a computer at the gaming table. :) Just that online tools would make things easier before, during, and after the regular old physical tabletop game. My reasoning follows; would love comments.

1) Less/No Book-keeping, meaning more play time. Character creation should take place online, using an interface similar to that for Neverwinter Nights 2. Right now there are just too many feats, skills, PRCs, Spells, etc scattered over way too many physical books. Want to make a 1/2 elf Bard/Duskblade/Artificer with 1/2 elf substitution levels and decent bard spells? You've got at *least* 5 books open in front of you. What a user-unfriendly experience!

NWN2's interface is just better: you have all your available feats selectable from a list. Want to know what "Curse Song" does? Right click on it, and all the rules pop up. With just a few clicks you've got a full character, with all the skills and modifiers computed for you. Less BS, more play time.

Level up? Log on and update your guy. No erasing, recalculating, fussing around. Forget your character sheet at home? Use your buddy's PC to logon to the database and print out a fresh sheet. Want to have a fully-statted sheet ready for when you're fully buffed? Apply the modifiers once (drag and drop the spells onto your guy; it'll handle the math) and print out a buffed sheet. Have an animal companion, mount, or familiar? He's auto-updated too.

Everyone is familiar with a computer game or video game levelup screen. Don't force players to dig through dozens of heavy textbooks and scratch around with a pencil and eraser. Make it easy and familiar.

2) Faster game. What stalls games? Spells, in my experience--the poor fighter working out flank, plus bard song, plus bulls strength, plus who knows what. WotC could create PDFs of common spell effects and make them available online. Casters print these out and pass them around to players.

The other time-gobbler is casters looking up their spells. Let them instead create custom spellbooks: drag from a list and drop into your virtual book, all inside the online character database. Then just click "print" and a concise collection of all your spells comes out in a just-the-facts table format (complete with auto-calculated save DCs appropriate for your abilities and feats!) followed by full spell descriptions. Take that to your game, and you'll never have to waste everyone's time flipping through a rulebook (or more likely than not, rulebooks) at the table.

3) Easier to create for.. Most critical element, and the element best aided by the computer. Let DMs drag dungeon tiles, traps, items, treasure, and monsters onto a map. Handy filters for level, CR, and whatnot would let DMs properly scale adventures for their particular number of players (even less than/more than 4 players!) quickly and easily. Then click print. Out comes the map, a room-by-room description containing each room's contents (complete with Challenge Rating, DCs, XP, and other stats), followed by an appendix with each monster's full entry in its entirety. A right-click on any monster will let you add equipment, class levels, spell effects, templates, whatever--and the resulting stat changes auto-calculate. Much better than cobbling together everything on the fly.

Last game I played, our wizard cast Animate Dead on a hydra. We collectively wasted twenty minutes looking up the spell, figuring out if he could create a skeletal hydra, applying the template, adjusting stats, recomputing attacks, AC, move, and saves, etc. etc. etc. How much better would it be to glance at the character's pre-printed spell list (which already computed max HD for that character's Animate Dead spell), turn to the computer (we game in the basement/computer room), logon to WotC, pull up "Hydra", drag "Skeletal template" onto the entry, and click "Print". Done in four clicks and 60 seconds.


4) Less daunting to new players.. World of Warcraft has over seven million subscribers. Seven million. The very worst-selling videogame RPG sells many more copies than the best-selling tabletop RPG. It's safe to assume that the vast majority of potential players are much more familiar with interactive online character creation than they are with flipping through books, looking up charts, scribbling on paper. Take away the hassle, make it easy and accessible. You'll be able to add *more* complexity, more fun.

5) More visually attractive. An elegant interface, perhaps with music and even animated art, is much more attractive than a book dense with text.

6) Collectibility. Apple, Blizzard, even WotC itself have proved people will pay real $ for virtual property (bits, whether the bits are music, MMORPG, cards, or books). You'll be able to sell MORE books online, since you're not limited to finite shelfspace in a brick-and-mortar book or game store.

7) Better from a tactical viewpoint. This is where it all comes together. Imagine a D&D game taking place on an online battlemap, only the map is animated (rustling tree branches, flowing streams) and the minis actually move (dodge, swing, bleed). Everyone is talking together over voice-over-IP. All the calculations occur behind-the-scenes, letting players concentrate on the gameplay. Moving your Blessed invisible ranger into a flanking position on a wagon over a ogre who's been hit with Bane spell? Click to move, click to attack, done. No fussing with adding up bless + flank mod + high ground + invis attacker + no dex bonus to AC for ogre + Bane effects + favored enemy.

Battles will go much faster, meaning you get to have more battles, meaning you get to actually PLAY more. The non-combat bits can be handled on the battle map (for location-specific puzzles, exploration, etc.) or off the battle map (for NPC dialogue, etc.--just like today's D&D).

The #1 killer of D&D campaigns is player attrition due to job, spouses, kids keeping them from being able to physically travel to the game. so instead, have everyone meet online. that half hour commute to, and from, the hosting player's house directly translates into 1 additional hour of actual playing time. Assuming a weekly game, it's like getting 4 extra hours a month--or an entire extra game session per month.

I tell you: the Internet will save the tabletop genre.

-z

EDIT: added clarification from later reply
 
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schporto

First Post
Yeah most of that sounds good. Until someone uses a Quaal's Token to drop a boat on someone's head. Or wants to do something not really covered. Or the DM misjudged and wants to fudge the fight. Or wants to use something from Dragon or some company that isn't WoTC. Do you think WoTC will allow you to use that home made prestige class? Or that one from Green Ronin? Or will green ronin allow it?
I like computers. Intellectual Property Owners tend not to like them.
Paper's real strength is allowing you to do whatever you want. Computers need rules.
-cpd
 

Masquerade

First Post
I don't think you're looking for D&D 4e. You're looking for NWN3. :p

Schporto nailed it. The limitations would far outweight the benefits. I'm not saying such a game couldn't be fun, but it would lose much of what I look for in a roleplaying game.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
No. What we need is a small army of (Indian?) telephone support people who are doing nothing but watching our games over webcams and listening to our chatter and are calculating all our attack, defense and save bonuses. In real time.

That, or smarter computers who can listen in.

But once computers can do that, I fully expect them to want to play... :)

Cheers, -- N

PS: "I'm calling DragOnStar!"
 

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
I guess I don't see schporto's point. For the token, you just drag a boat icon onto the map and place it over the guy. Remove the guy. Everyone laughs. What's the problem?

For those who wish to play entirely online, I'm imagining something much more loose than NWN (which requires scripting, AI, etc. etc.). I'm envisioning a turn-based, grid-based game. Really, just the battlemap on a computer screen, but with the (probably java-based) program handling the math and referencing the online character database.

It'd be easy to modify on-the-fly. Want to use some weirdo made-up monster? Pick a model from the virtual mini locker, tweak the stats to whatever you want, name it, save it, and you're good to go. Exactly like placing an Orc mini on the physical table and telling your players "this is a purple-skinned Florbworble, not an orc".

As for licensed property, I'm just talking WotC here. Third-party would be out of luck for the online version. Not that big a deal, at least from this player's perspective. Maybe a new revenue stream for WotC would be licensing out access to what is essentially an online RPG platform; they can work out some kind of rev share with the third party guys in the same way Ubisoft pays Sony a license fee for each PlayStation game they sell.

-z
 
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phindar

First Post
I like on-line generators and resources for everything except character generation. Every group uses house rules, and my group regularly makes rules tweaks between campaigns. It would have to be customizable, otherwise I'd drift back to books where I can pick and choose which rules I want to use, modify or remove.

Other than that, I think its a very good idea. A lot of this (map making, encounter creation, random character generation) can be done with current on line resources.
 

Vrecknidj

Explorer
We need nanotech transceivers that allow us to interface with one another and play in a virtual space. Our internalized chips will siphon excess computing power from the brain itself, and, given the connectedness, will use a technology similar to Sony's cell technology so that the smarter folks' brains can be tapped for excess power.

We'll each have avatars, and the DM will be granted special over-ride access (except, of course, that kernel programs will keep the DM out--no need to have D&D take over our lives).

So, everything will happen in our imaginations, literally.

:)

Dave
 

Ferghis

First Post
I'd love to see what you say. For the reasons you state. And I really think that's what they should do, if they could do it even remotely properly.

But I think WoTC thinks they'd make less money. Right now they make the bulk of their money bu publishing new rulebooks, for the most part. There are a few settings, but these aren't the bulk of the production (I think someone suggested it's because settings are mostly mutually exclusive, e.g. a dark sun player won't buy planescape material). With an online game, they wouldn't publish much in the way of rules, because they wouldn't sell the rules. I sincerely believe they could charge $20 a month, and most of us would pay it, and they would be rich. But they wouldn't be doing what they want anymore.

Which take me to: WoTC makes games, nor software. The idea of supporting D&D with software has been much discussed in the software section, and it's just not very easy for programmers to make it happen (have you seen what's out there?) Let alone people who don't know much about programming. D&D is a game of exceptions. It's very hard to even just make a spreadsheet for the core ruleset, which is very coherent. I don't know about you, but even the simplified, streamlined D&DOnline has not been getting the best reviews. It would be a lot of work to pack all of it into code.

Zaruthustran said:
As for licensed property, I'm just talking WotC here. Third-party would be out of luck for the online version. Not that big a deal, at least from this player's perspective. Maybe a new revenue stream for WotC would be licensing out access to what is essentially an online RPG platform; they can work out some kind of rev share with the third party guys in the same way Ubisoft pays Sony a license fee for each PlayStation game they sell.
This is another problem. If you pay the fixed amount, and you play and like it, you most likely aren't going to want to pay more to get some little extra thing. Think of MMORPGs. People move from one game to another every few years because the old game is out of date, not because the new one adds a little thing to the old one.

Oh, and I almost forgot: houserules. Everyone has them. And software probably wouldn't allow them.
 

EyeontheMountain

First Post
If all gamers were like those on these boards, then maybe Online stuff would work. I support the idea, I really do, but as an add-on to D&D, not the new D&D. Lots of people still have no Internet acccess at all, and many many more struggle with dial-up only.

And waht would be the cost of such a service? 30.00 a month like some online games. No thanks. I'll have a book for 30.00 I cn use till my dying day, thanks.
 

schporto

First Post
Zaruthustran said:
I guess I don't see schporto's point. For the token, you just drag a boat icon onto the map and place it over the guy. Remove the guy. Everyone laughs. What's the problem?

I'm imagining something much more loose than NWN (which requires scripting, AI, etc. etc.). I'm envisioning a turn-based, grid-based game. Really, just the battlemap on a computer screen, but with the (probably java-based) program handling the math and referencing the online character database.

It'd be easy to modify on-the-fly. Want to use some weirdo made-up monster? Pick a model from the virtual mini locker, tweak the stats to whatever you want, name it, save it, and you're good to go. Exactly like placing an Orc mini on the physical table and telling your players "this is a purple-skinned Florbworble, not an orc".

As for licensed property, I'm just talking WotC here. Third-party would be out of luck for the online version. Not that big a deal, at least from this player's perspective. Maybe a new revenue stream for WotC would be licensing out access to what is essentially an online RPG platform; they can work out some kind of rev share with the third party guys in the same way Ubisoft pays Sony a license fee for each PlayStation game they sell.

-z

Well I kinda latched onto that 'click to move, click to attack and it resolves". But that boat thing suddenly requires the DM to step in (as he should). So if I missed your point, then yeah that makes some sense. But I will throw a few other wrenches out to see how you deal with them.
1. My wife plays in my game. We have 1 pc.
2. Not all my players have laptops. Would the DM just control the characters?
3. Look at the threads on laptops - a good portion of people find them distracting at the table.
4. But. I like my dice.
As I've said, I like computers. I think they can do a lot of things. But they're tools. Use them as such. Now, a DM's screen that has some of this, showing areas that are covered by spell effects. Yeah I can see some of this. But putting a lot of this online, removing third parties, requireing computers, These are bad.
-cpd
 

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