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Internet Saved the Tabletop Genre

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
phindar said:
I like on-line generators and resources for everything except character generation. Every group uses house rules, and my group regularly makes rules tweaks between campaigns. It would have to be customizable, otherwise I'd drift back to books where I can pick and choose which rules I want to use, modify or remove.

Sure, of course. When a DM creates a campaign, it'd be much like creating a server in Halo. You check or uncheck the books you want to use, or even the rules you want to use (they'd all be editable). Don't like flanking bonuses? Uncheck "flanking". Want flanking to be more of a big deal? Modify the bonus to +4, or +8. Whatever.

3.5E goes a long way toward compartmentalizing the ruleset; any 4th edition would likely further group rules into individual modules a DM could alter (or discard) at will.

-z
 

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Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
schporto said:
Well I kinda latched onto that 'click to move, click to attack and it resolves". But that boat thing suddenly requires the DM to step in (as he should). So if I missed your point, then yeah that makes some sense. But I will throw a few other wrenches out to see how you deal with them.
1. My wife plays in my game. We have 1 pc.
2. Not all my players have laptops. Would the DM just control the characters?
3. Look at the threads on laptops - a good portion of people find them distracting at the table.
4. But. I like my dice.
As I've said, I like computers. I think they can do a lot of things. But they're tools. Use them as such. Now, a DM's screen that has some of this, showing areas that are covered by spell effects. Yeah I can see some of this. But putting a lot of this online, removing third parties, requireing computers, These are bad.
-cpd

I'm not suggesting that 4E should be exclusively online. :) The "everyone online" scenario was just an option: the full efficiency from an online character creation/online dungeon creation/online rule library platform. The comments on elements 1-6 don't require anyone to be online while playing. They just make things easier before, during, and after the regular old physical tabletop game.

Online tools should come as part of the D&D value proposition. Buy a PHB, get an activation code that lets you access all kinds of cool tools and functionality. Buy a DMG, get access to the DM tools. Buy a MM, monsters. Less robust versions (perhaps printing, but no saving, functionality) should be free.

-z
 

I dont want to see anything (Table-Top RPG wise) that requires "Online" Access. Having something online might be an "Extra", but nothing more than that. Oh, and Im certainly not going to pay for it either. I bought the game once Im not paying to have a Convientient "DM or player tool" because Im too lazy to do it myself. Those of you who dont have the time, your the exception.
 

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
Zaruthustran said:
(thread title to be sung to the tune of Video Killed the Radio Star)

In another thread an ENworlder named Upper Krust suggested that 4E should incorporate these elements:

1) Less/No Book-keeping, meaning more play time.
2) Faster game.
3) Easier to create for.
4) Less daunting to new players.
5) More visually attractive.
6) Collectibility.
7) Better from a tactical viewpoint.

I think all 7 elements can best be served by integrating online functionality into D&D. I'm not suggesting that 4E should be exclusively online, or require a computer at the gaming table. :) Just that online tools would make things easier before, during, and after the regular old physical tabletop game.
This sounds good to me. Less math and easier visuals (good, simple to create graphics) are at the top of my list. I feel that addressing those issues would make D&D a better game.

Also, I want to point out that Zaruthustran doesn't require a computer at the table. See his/her other posts for further clarification. Basically, how can WotC and others make the existing game more fun using currently available tools? This is a good start.
 

Umberhulk

First Post
Hmmm. There are already web and software tools out there that do all these things. Perhaps the polish isn't there on all those products, but you can do a lot of these functionally already. It would be nice to be able to access all the monsters online though as opposed to just the SRD ones, however. Perhaps, Wizards could have an electronic key come with the purchase of the hard bound books that allows for access to a searchable online repository of all Classes, PrCs, races, monsters, spells, and equipment rules from those books that you own.

As far as book-keeping and faster play goes there are lots of other game systems designed for that kind of play from as far back as the 70s: Tunnels & Trolls and The Fantasy Trip come to mind. DnD is what it is. It has a formula that works for it and its style of play. Using the afore mentioned tools can help you prepare.

What I'd like to see is less exceptions during play on the battle mat. Full round actions, movement actions, and standard actions get confusing especially for new players. I think that table could be revamped and just have everything be an "action" and you get to do two actions per turn.
 

Hussar

Legend
As Umberhulk mentioned, such things already exist. www.openrpg.com will pretty much do everything on the list above. Granted, it's not the prettiest interface - but you can't beat the price. Heck, OpenRPG+ now autolinks to the d20 srd in the chat window.
 

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
Exactly, TarionzCousin. Use online tools to make D&D easier, more accessible. Character creation is, frankly, cumbersome and time-consuming. It's work. It takes a solid 1/2 hour to an hour for an experienced player, way more time for a newbie--most new campaigns devote the entire first session to character creation.

Give players the option of online character generation. All the rules are instantly accessible (and searchable!), and up-to-date with the latest errata. Instead of flipping through a glossary, or leafing through a chapter for the mechanics of "Power Attack", you can right click and pull up a definition. All the stats and attributes auto-calculate. Your character is stored online so you can update or print out a character sheet from anywhere. Quick, easy, user-friendly.

Umberhulk and Hussar, as far as I know there is no online (as in, accessible from the Web) character creation tool/character database/spell book creator that references each other as well as rules from up-to-date D&D books. I've seen some Excel workbooks and of course PCGen, but these products have such poor interface/usability design that they're as user-unfriendly as physical books. We need something with professional design and polish, like what you see in NWN2 or any other decent computer RPG.

OpenRPG is a great first step towards the online battlemap that I talked about, but it doesn't have a player character creator or access a character database.

-z
 

Festivus

First Post
What then do I read in the bathroom?

edit: blast me and my itchy trigger finger.

1) Less/No Book-keeping, meaning more play time. Character creation should take place online, using an interface similar to that for Neverwinter Nights 2. Right now there are just too many feats, skills, PRCs, Spells, etc scattered over way too many physical books. Want to make a 1/2 elf Bard/Duskblade/Artificer with 1/2 elf substitution levels and decent bard spells? You've got at *least* 5 books open in front of you. What a user-unfriendly experience!

NWN2's interface is just better: you have all your available feats selectable from a list. Want to know what "Curse Song" does? Right click on it, and all the rules pop up. With just a few clicks you've got a full character, with all the skills and modifiers computed for you. Less BS, more play time.

Level up? Log on and update your guy. No erasing, recalculating, fussing around. Forget your character sheet at home? Use your buddy's PC to logon to the database and print out a fresh sheet. Want to have a fully-statted sheet ready for when you're fully buffed? Apply the modifiers once (drag and drop the spells onto your guy; it'll handle the math) and print out a buffed sheet. Have an animal companion, mount, or familiar? He's auto-updated too.

Everyone is familiar with a computer game or video game levelup screen. Don't force players to dig through dozens of heavy textbooks and scratch around with a pencil and eraser. Make it easy and familiar.


I can see some aspects of this working, but I also see it as something someone would look at and say "We should charge folks $5 a month to keep 4 characters on our server and use our levelling service."

2) Faster game. What stalls games? Spells, in my experience--the poor fighter working out flank, plus bard song, plus bulls strength, plus who knows what. WotC could create PDFs of common spell effects and make them available online. Casters print these out and pass them around to players.

The other time-gobbler is casters looking up their spells. Let them instead create custom spellbooks: drag from a list and drop into your virtual book, all inside the online character database. Then just click "print" and a concise collection of all your spells comes out in a just-the-facts table format (complete with auto-calculated save DCs appropriate for your abilities and feats!) followed by full spell descriptions. Take that to your game, and you'll never have to waste everyone's time flipping through a rulebook (or more likely than not, rulebooks) at the table.


You can get cards today, now. The Other Game Company produces the SRD ones and give away blank cards you can fill in yourself for your other spells. You can also use something like SpellForge, version 4.11 contains all the spells from the Spell Compendium, and prints them all out nicely in a easy to read table format.

3) Easier to create for.. Most critical element, and the element best aided by the computer. Let DMs drag dungeon tiles, traps, items, treasure, and monsters onto a map. Handy filters for level, CR, and whatnot would let DMs properly scale adventures for their particular number of players (even less than/more than 4 players!) quickly and easily. Then click print. Out comes the map, a room-by-room description containing each room's contents (complete with Challenge Rating, DCs, XP, and other stats), followed by an appendix with each monster's full entry in its entirety. A right-click on any monster will let you add equipment, class levels, spell effects, templates, whatever--and the resulting stat changes auto-calculate. Much better than cobbling together everything on the fly.

Last game I played, our wizard cast Animate Dead on a hydra. We collectively wasted twenty minutes looking up the spell, figuring out if he could create a skeletal hydra, applying the template, adjusting stats, recomputing attacks, AC, move, and saves, etc. etc. etc. How much better would it be to glance at the character's pre-printed spell list (which already computed max HD for that character's Animate Dead spell), turn to the computer (we game in the basement/computer room), logon to WotC, pull up "Hydra", drag "Skeletal template" onto the entry, and click "Print". Done in four clicks and 60 seconds.


There are an awful lot of options there, I don't think it would be all that smooth. And how would you propose house rules and those odd variations that they just can't account for on a computer program?


4) Less daunting to new players.. World of Warcraft has over seven million subscribers. Seven million. The very worst-selling videogame RPG sells many more copies than the best-selling tabletop RPG. It's safe to assume that the vast majority of potential players are much more familiar with interactive online character creation than they are with flipping through books, looking up charts, scribbling on paper. Take away the hassle, make it easy and accessible. You'll be able to add *more* complexity, more fun.

Personally, D&D to me isn't WoW, and I hope it never becomes it. WoW and similar is all about combat... kill the bad guy get the quest item move on. It takes a certain mentaility that I don't think translates well to a roleplaying game.... even though they call them role playing games.

5) More visually attractive. An elegant interface, perhaps with music and even animated art, is much more attractive than a book dense with text.

I can't read a computer screen in the bathroom. Also, I would rather print out a pdf and read it than read it on a screen... Something about paper in your hand that is comforting to me.

6) Collectibility. Apple, Blizzard, even WotC itself have proved people will pay real $ for virtual property (bits, whether the bits are music, MMORPG, cards, or books). You'll be able to sell MORE books online, since you're not limited to finite shelfspace in a brick-and-mortar book or game store.

I would love for everyone to put books online in PDF format, but there is also something to be said for a well bound hard cover book.

7) Better from a tactical viewpoint. This is where it all comes together. Imagine a D&D game taking place on an online battlemap, only the map is animated (rustling tree branches, flowing streams) and the minis actually move (dodge, swing, bleed). Everyone is talking together over voice-over-IP. All the calculations occur behind-the-scenes, letting players concentrate on the gameplay. Moving your Blessed invisible ranger into a flanking position on a wagon over a ogre who's been hit with Bane spell? Click to move, click to attack, done. No fussing with adding up bless + flank mod + high ground + invis attacker + no dex bonus to AC for ogre + Bane effects + favored enemy.

Battles will go much faster, meaning you get to have more battles, meaning you get to actually PLAY more. The non-combat bits can be handled on the battle map (for location-specific puzzles, exploration, etc.) or off the battle map (for NPC dialogue, etc.--just like today's D&D).

The #1 killer of D&D campaigns is player attrition due to job, spouses, kids keeping them from being able to physically travel to the game. so instead, have everyone meet online. that half hour commute to, and from, the hosting player's house directly translates into 1 additional hour of actual playing time. Assuming a weekly game, it's like getting 4 extra hours a month--or an entire extra game session per month.


If I want that I will just play Neverwinter Nights... oh wait, I do. It isn't the same game, nowhere near it. I even play a Fantasy Grounds game, and you know what... it isn't as fun as face to face tabletop gaming for me.

I tell you: the Internet will save the tabletop genre.

I wasn't aware that it was in need of saving... is there something somewhere that states the dire situation tabletop RPGs are in, because I think I missed it.
 
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mikejywood

First Post
Computers are good for math and maybe mapping

If I understand Zar correctly he wants online stuff for:

1) Character Creation
2) Complex Combat situations (flanking, buffs and maybe map control)

The first one has been done pretty well already. I assume everyone uses HeroForge.

Part two would be pretty complex but would, essentially, be an additional product to the D20 line. It would be a program that handled mapping, buffs and any combat situations that may occur, a great product but not a rule-set in itself. In fact if this was done (please) it could handle multiple rule sets. It's a different product, and totally cool, but shouldn't be tied to either 4e or 3.5e.

That having been said someone should totally do this and give it to me to beta test.
 

Zaruthustran

The tingling means it’s working!
Festivus said:
Personally, D&D to me isn't WoW, and I hope it never becomes it. WoW and similar is all about combat... kill the bad guy get the quest item move on. It takes a certain mentaility that I don't think translates well to a roleplaying game.... even though they call them role playing games.

We already have a WoW-like experience with D&D classes, races, and monsters: D&D Online, by Turbine. That's a whole other topic. I'd just like D&D to offer--in addition to hardcover books--well designed online tools with polished interfaces.

I wasn't aware that it was in need of saving... is there something somewhere that states the dire situation tabletop RPGs are in, because I think I missed it.

Assume that any person has a finite entertainment budget, in terms of both dollars and time. Those seven million WoW players are each spending $15/month, plus (on average) 20 hours per week. Those are big drains on the limited budget, leaving few dollars and hours for D&D.

More and more people prefer MMORPGs because you do more stuff in less time. In a four-hour D&D session, you might get into four fights and advance 1/4 of a level. In the same amount of time in an MMORPG, you've accomplished a dozen quests, gotten into hundreds of fights, and advanced at least 1, probably 2 or 3 levels.

I state the above not to get into a debate over whether MMORPGs or TT RPGs are objectively "better", but to suggest that people prefer to spend time *playing* rather than flipping through books and deciphering rules.

So keep the hard-bound books for bathroom reading. But give players polished tools that remove the burden of busywork, allowing them to spend more time on actual gameplay.

I'm going to out on a limb and guess that the dwindling cadre of old-school gamers--the same guys that ranted against the debut of 3E--will reflexively reject any hint that WotC might offer online options for players. That's fine. To survive (and grow!), D&D needs to attract new customers. The easiest way to do that is to present the game in a way that's familiar and user-friendly.

-z
 

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