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10:1 illegal downloads

Krensky

First Post
Since most of my reading is done on my Palm due to time constraints, Baen is my go to source. I have other publishers on there too, but lots and lots of Baen. Because it's DRM free and the authors and editors get that treating people like they're honest encourages them to be honest.
 

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DracoSuave

First Post
The question of whether illegal filesharing is in the benefit of the holder of the intellectual property is an interesting one. In order to answer that question, you need to take a large sizable sample of illegal downloaders, and inquire as to whether they own hard covers of the books. Of those, ask them how many perchased their books afterwards. Of those that didn't, ask them if they'll buy the books afterwards. Subtract A from B. If negative, you have lost sales. If positive, you have gained sales.
 

thedungeondelver

Adventurer

Can I ask a seemingly naive or perhaps even stupid question here? I apologize if it seems out of the blue or breaks the discussion's flow up, I'm not looking to cause a problem or start a side debate or anything but...

It's the stance of Wizards that if I download a copy of the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE (I'm talking about stock # TSR2011 here - y'all know I'm about the 1e) off of a filesharing network, that I've "pirated" it. So, scenario: Boot up the PC, I hit a torrent site, I fire up a client, grab a copy of the abovementioned, get the file out, shut down the app, boom, I've got it. I don't share it with friends, I don't create a new torrent, I don't put it on a binary newsgroup, encode it on paper punch tape, dump it onto a 7-bit EBCDIC reel tape, none of that...

Now, as you all might have guessed, over here on my bookshelf I've got no less than four copies of the same book. But I'm still a pirate for all intents.

Next scenario.

In this one I know nothing of torrents or I don't want to deal with their dogdy nature or whatever. Boot up the PC, grab one of my DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDEs, disassemble it with a razor, make nice, clean scans of it one at a time with my hella awesome Dell AIO 960, OCR it, the whole deal. Again, I don't share this digital copy I've made for myself in any way shape or form. I have four (well now three usable) hard copies and one digital copy. In neither scenario did I pay Wizards so I could use my computer to get that digital copy. One used the internet, one used a USB cable. In neither case did I share with anyone. But are both piracy? Technically?

This is really more of a question about general copyright laws. I'm not trying to intellectually trap anyone here. For one I'm not smart enough to do something like that.

 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
You have a legal right to ONE backup copy. How you acquire said backup might cross the lines of legality, however.



Can I ask a seemingly naive or perhaps even stupid question here? I apologize if it seems out of the blue or breaks the discussion's flow up, I'm not looking to cause a problem or start a side debate or anything but...

It's the stance of Wizards that if I download a copy of the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE (I'm talking about stock # TSR2011 here - y'all know I'm about the 1e) off of a filesharing network, that I've "pirated" it. So, scenario: Boot up the PC, I hit a torrent site, I fire up a client, grab a copy of the abovementioned, get the file out, shut down the app, boom, I've got it. I don't share it with friends, I don't create a new torrent, I don't put it on a binary newsgroup, encode it on paper punch tape, dump it onto a 7-bit EBCDIC reel tape, none of that...

Now, as you all might have guessed, over here on my bookshelf I've got no less than four copies of the same book. But I'm still a pirate for all intents.

Next scenario.

In this one I know nothing of torrents or I don't want to deal with their dogdy nature or whatever. Boot up the PC, grab one of my DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDEs, disassemble it with a razor, make nice, clean scans of it one at a time with my hella awesome Dell AIO 960, OCR it, the whole deal. Again, I don't share this digital copy I've made for myself in any way shape or form. I have four (well now three usable) hard copies and one digital copy. In neither scenario did I pay Wizards so I could use my computer to get that digital copy. One used the internet, one used a USB cable. In neither case did I share with anyone. But are both piracy? Technically?

This is really more of a question about general copyright laws. I'm not trying to intellectually trap anyone here. For one I'm not smart enough to do something like that.

 

Imban

First Post
The question of whether illegal filesharing is in the benefit of the holder of the intellectual property is an interesting one. In order to answer that question, you need to take a large sizable sample of illegal downloaders, and inquire as to whether they own hard covers of the books. Of those, ask them how many perchased their books afterwards. Of those that didn't, ask them if they'll buy the books afterwards. Subtract A from B. If negative, you have lost sales. If positive, you have gained sales.

See, that's what's not the case. A vast majority of people who download something illegally have never came within a mile of intent to purchase the work in question.

So it's more like asking people who've illegally downloaded stuff if they've bought the product or other related products (because if someone pirates the PHB and is thus attracted to D&D and buys the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, PHB2, and Arcane Power, you've gained a steady customer) or, for products like D&D which require a social setting to use, incited someone else to purchase more products (because if someone buys the corebooks, can't find a group, and thus pirates them to someone else who runs a game for him, inciting the first player to buy more books to use in said game), or possibly other things I'm not capable of thinking of at 1 AM...

...versus someone who was a customer or strongly considering becoming a customer going to purchase a product in such a way that you'd see the money from it, but then found it available for free and chose that instead. (Or not purchasing because he knows it will be available for free when he would otherwise.)

People for whom the legal version is not acceptable in any form being offered are basically irrelevant to sales gained or lost - if they hate D&D but are being dragged into an online game by their friends, if the legal version is infested with intrusive DRM, if the legal version is rental-only and requires a $400 piece of proprietary equipment to use, whatever: there are things you could do to get their money, but "eliminating piracy" isn't it, because they fundamentally don't want what you're selling.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
There is something severely wrong with an industry that would desire watching a DVD with your friend to be illegal unless your friend also purchased a copy. There is something severly wrong with an industry that would desire loaning your friend a DVD to watch or a book to read to be illegal. There is something severly wrong with an industry that would desire to make taping a program to watch later illegal.

It is my understanding that proposed changes to Canada's copyright laws would make all of these things illegal, and these changes are being pushed by the Motion Picture people.

There is something severely wrong with a society who accepts the same because they place the value of corporate profits over the value of watching a movie with a friend.

IMHO, of course.

YMMV.


RC
 

Sylrae

First Post
I agree with you. The 10:1 number is at best an educated guess, and frankly I don't have enough confidence in them for that. Regardless of what they say, no, they can not track how many copies of the book were downloaded. For that matter, I wouldn't give them enough credit to get an accurate tally of how many copies were legally purchased through sanctioned venues.

That said, my personal suspicion is that they're lowballing it.

As an aside, there's no such thing as a 'fair use download.' It is illegal to download from anywhere other than an authorized retailer from whom you have purchased the book. Period.

Well, Canadian Copyright law would include Fair-Use-Download. Canadian copyright law allows you to download digital copies of anything you have purchased legitimately. You buy a dvd, you can download a rip, and legally have it. You buy a book, you can legally download a copy online. It makes sense. Of course, sharing those downloads with other people is still illegal, because they may or may not have legit copies. You could legally give a copy to a friend who had a legit copy though.

As many have pointed out, 10:1 is still alot better than X:0. The pirating isn't going to stop, or even slow down. However, the legit copies did. I suppose the difference will be release dates for new titles. it won't be available online on release day anymore unless it's leaked. people will have to wait 1-3 days before they get their bootlegs.

pdfs are rritating as hell to play from though. takes too long to flip through a pdf, and im not going to pass my laptop around for other people to see. I have pdfs of all my legit books, and I didn't pay for them. as I pointed out though, that's not piracy here, it is a Fair-Use-Download. I use the pdfs when im planning a session for OCR search abilities and for an extra screen (otherwise its a pain to search through a dozen books at once, so hardcover + pc = less clutter too), and I use the books when im actually playing. I buy legit scans of books I don't own though if theyre available.

This decision only annoys me because i have to hunt down either pirated pdfs of 2e books if i want them, or find them on ebay, as opposed to just going to rpgnow. WOTC lost their new release profits from me when I played 4e on release day and hated it. I still buy some other wotc products, but they just ensured that now none of the profits go to them. they dont make money off ebay, and i cant buy their pdfs anymore for the books I want (which are all out of print). lol.

I got sick of running D&D though so lately I play stuff using the mechanics from Storyteller (White Wolf) - which are much more streamlined, and tend to have more original characters in the games. Wouldnt work great for standard fantasy, but you put it in a more modern setting, or dont have vast physical differences between the races and it's the way to go. Of course, where 4e has no equivalent to LA or racial levels, that kindof just shoved it off completely. 4e may have kept me for FR, but new FR seems too dumb to me, so i took a pass on that too.

Not surprised about the decision, and I see the reason behind it, but they aren't helping themselves, just losing profit they would have gotten.
 
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mudbunny

Community Supporter
Well, Canadian Copyright law would include Fair-Use-Download. Canadian copyright law allows you to download digital copies of anything you have purchased legitimately. You buy a dvd, you can download a rip, and legally have it. You buy a book, you can legally download a copy online. It makes sense. Of course, sharing those downloads with other people is still illegal, because they may or may not have legit copies. You could legally give a copy to a friend who had a legit copy though.

I am pretty sure that applies only to music downloads.

As mentioned, in Canada, there is a tariff paid on blank recording media. This tariff is accumulated and used to compensate musicians who have had their stuff downloaded. As a result of this tariff, it is legal (I am not a lawyer) for Canadians to download music. Uploading is still completely illegal. (I am not a lawyer)
 

Sylrae

First Post
I am pretty sure that applies only to music downloads.

As mentioned, in Canada, there is a tariff paid on blank recording media. This tariff is accumulated and used to compensate musicians who have had their stuff downloaded. As a result of this tariff, it is legal (I am not a lawyer) for Canadians to download music. Uploading is still completely illegal. (I am not a lawyer)

You have the general idea down, but it applies to more than music, and i dont think the tariff thing is correct. I know it applies to video and software as well (I'm not a lawyer either, I just read). And I'm quite certain it applies to anything else you can make digital copies of too.

It's an extension of the law that youre allowed to make your own backups of anything you own. If a backup of the same thing exists, you can use that backup instead of making one.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
That is an amazingly wishful position. WotC's choice will prevent 0-hour pirating, barring more inside jobs. It won't cut into the amount of pirating done, however.

I went through point by point why I think it will decrease pirating. Your response seems to amount to "Nuh uh".

Care to back up your position? Kinda hard to discuss "nuh uh".
 

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