D&D 5E 11/1/13 google hangout with

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
What I would like to see is less dictation of actions, and more things like the 4e mark: something that introduces an incentive to perform a particular action.

...

Dictating actions is kind of kludgy and kind of weird and kind of just not a lot of fun, when compared with incentivizing certain actions, and encouraging the DM to act in-character. Is the big ogre going to take advantage of that damage bonus? Oh, probably. Is that clever necromancer? Well, probably not.

I dunno, maybe I'm out in left field on this one.

I don't think you're out in left field, but I do disagree a bit.

First, on the practical side: forced movement is just a lot easier to keep track of than short-term buffs or debuffs like 4e Mark or the Taunt you describe. And designing an "incentive" that actually works as intended is even tougher. The Taunt you describe, for example, would be worse than useless against any enemy with ranged attacks.

Second, I think there's only really a "disconnect" here if you're imagining the enemy forces as a rational hive-mind all working in close synchronization to optimize battle tactics. When you successfully Taunt a guy, you're either tricking him or simply enraging him to the point that he ignores his better judgment to try to get in a good solid thwack. Maybe you fake tripping so that the enemy archer can't get in a good shot, but just KNOWS he could take you down if he came in closer. Maybe you simply call him a wimp for not taking you on mano y mano.

Yeah, there are manipulative people in the world, but they don't remove your free will -- they don't MAKE you do something. You end up CHOOSING to do something. That's an important element that I don't think should be missed.

Manipulation means convincing someone to do something you want them to, even if it's not in their own best interest. That's exactly what these skills represent. The enemy failing his Wis check represents him making a bad choice. Heck, I've had my characters roll Wisdom checks to see whether they do stupid things plenty of times! (To clarify: abilities like Taunt take a choice away from the PLAYER or DM, but NOT from the character, who is simply making a choice counter to the player or DM's wishes.)
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
ZombieRoboNinja said:
First, on the practical side: forced movement is just a lot easier to keep track of than short-term buffs or debuffs like 4e Mark or the Taunt you describe.

Fair point. How about this twist: Taunt only gives that damage bonus if the creature tries to hit you on its next turn. That damage bonus could be a physical die.

ZombieRoboNinja said:
When you successfully Taunt a guy, you're either tricking him or simply enraging him to the point that he ignores his better judgment to try to get in a good solid thwack. Maybe you fake tripping so that the enemy archer can't get in a good shot, but just KNOWS he could take you down if he came in closer. Maybe you simply call him a wimp for not taking you on mano y mano.

What you're doing right now when you Taunt a guy is making them move toward you.

Why not incentivize them to move toward you instead?

ZombieRoboNinja said:
Manipulation means convincing someone to do something you want them to, even if it's not in their own best interest. That's exactly what these skills represent. The enemy failing his Wis check represents him making a bad choice. Heck, I've had my characters roll Wisdom checks to see whether they do stupid things plenty of times! (To clarify: abilities like Taunt take a choice away from the PLAYER or DM, but NOT from the character, who is simply making a choice counter to the player or DM's wishes.)

The issue with that is that making in-character choices is part of the fun of the game. If that choice is taken away, it can remove that fun part, substituting a die roll for a choice. I want to be INVOLVED in my character's choices, when they are choices. I don't want the game to play itself without my input.

I'm perfectly fine limiting magic that removes choice to high-level effects, too.

Neechen said:
In addition, I like how they don't want to use the label "Solo" with monsters to apply blanket abiliites, defenses, or immunities.

I'm a big fan of that, too. If they are curious about how they might want to do that, this article might help. ;)
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
The issue with that is that making in-character choices is part of the fun of the game. If that choice is taken away, it can remove that fun part, substituting a die roll for a choice. I want to be INVOLVED in my character's choices, when they are choices. I don't want the game to play itself without my input.

I think this is an easy fix, then: don't give monsters Taunt or Charm! That way the only characters getting taunted are the NPCs, and nobody cares whether the DM gets to make choices. ;)

On another note: why is everyone so in favor of the MDD change he talks about? It makes weapon selection important, okay, great. But it ALSO builds even more complexity into basic martial fighting. (Essentially, everyone now gets Deadly Strike AND Whirlwind Attack for free, if I understand correctly.) And now maneuvers are all add-ons to attacks? Honestly, I feel like MDD have been getting less tactical ever since they were introduced. I LIKED having a shiny pile of dice that refreshed once per round, that only the fighter got! I liked that some fighters focused more on single-target combat and others on fighting off hordes of enemies!
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
ZombieRoboNinja said:
I think this is an easy fix, then: don't give monsters Taunt or Charm! That way the only characters getting taunted are the NPCs, and nobody cares whether the DM gets to make choices.

Hahaha, if I wanted to play a game without DM choices, I don't know why I'd play D&D. :) No, as a DM, my "characters" are the NPC's. I should be involved in their decisions, when they are making them, too. I should be able to opt-out, but that's part of what the incentive can do: "Oh, I've got this extra d4 damage if I go try to beat on the rogue this turn. Mokay, decision made."
 

A'koss

Explorer
I quite enjoyed this Q&A and certainly can appreciate some of the reasoning behind their decisions. Definitely looking forward to seeing how multiclassing works (and I'm sure the CharOps are smacking their lips as we speak... ;-))

I also learned to look at taunt a little differently now and I agree that "Lure" is probably a better term for it.

But the one thing I do not agree on is changing the idea of changing the Martial Die to based on Weapon Die. This is a lesson it looked as though they learned but now look to throw away. What you're going to have is, again, just a handful of desirable weapons as most players will simply gravitate towards the highest die weapons in lieu of everything else. The d6 Martial Die opened up a whole range of character concepts as viable/desirable which they are now closing the door to.

And while I'm not opposed to their idea of turning extra die damage into multiple attacks they will have to keep a close eye on weapons or abilities that allow you to impose conditions on each of those attacks.
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
But the one thing I do not agree on is changing the idea of changing the Martial Die to based on Weapon Die. This is a lesson it looked as though they learned but now look to throw away. What you're going to have is, again, just a handful of desirable weapons as most players will simply gravitate towards the highest die weapons in lieu of everything else. The d6 Martial Die opened up a whole range of character concepts as viable/desirable which they are now closing the door to.

And while I'm not opposed to their idea of turning extra die damage into multiple attacks they will have to keep a close eye on weapons or abilities that allow you to impose conditions on each of those attacks.

You're right that with a simple change to swap a xd6 with, say, xd12 or 2xd6 (in case of a dwarf with a greataxe), it's a no-brainer to pick the biggest/baddest weapon you can find. However, that said, there is no reason why they can't also bake in disincentives to trade off that d12 of extra damage for a maneuver that, while powerful and useful, consumes that die without its magnitude contributing to the effect. What I'm saying is, there is a design space for a short-sword and shield using fighter with certain killer maneuvers using them BECAUSE he's not trading off so much damage to trigger his maneuvers.

Then it remains to balance status effects with "dead" a bit better, but e.g. this tradeoff already exists with, say, Parry, where currently you would trade off d12 + d6 damage with Deadly Strike for d6 DR. And obviously Parry could not simply use the straight up weapon die since d12 is too much DR to give PCs. But in the maneuver system, as it already stands, we already have your offensive output traded in for maneuvers, it just remains to balance a bit (ok, a lot), better the benefits of a maneuver-focused fighter who may chose a different weapon other than the most damaging one, if it has reach or trip or disarm as properties baked in.

The big issue is whether a d8 + shield + parry/other maneuvers can be balanced vs d12s of pure damage. I think it can, and it's worth the effort to try. Don't forget, there is such a thing as overkill too, and not all maneuvers should use the straight up weapon die to fuel their effects. They already do not. Consuming a d12 is a lot more costly in terms of opportunity cost vs a d6 or d8 weapon to trigger a maneuver, it's just a question of making maneuvers good enough (at least in certain circumstances), that it's worthwhile to do that. Don't forget, a guard might focus more on knocking you out, so damage is not a priority, or a slaver might not want to damage his potential profits by injuring you too much, so instead focused on trying to disarm + catch you with his man-catcher or net. There are plenty of reasons to not focus on the greataxe or greatsword all the time, especially if AC + maneuver benefits of a shield get better. For example, the parry benefit of a weapon might be always d6 per MDD, but different shields might give different die, independent of the weapon die. I don't think that's too complicated, since it already sort of works that way, but in reverse (it's always d6 now and your weapon hardly matter, which sucks)

The way to balance the sword + board guy with the big sword guy is not by making the damage the same, it's by the combined contributions of AC, Parry, survivability, etc.

Someone already posted on here math that battle axe + shield is more optimal than greataxe in facing hordes of skeletons at level 1. Maybe making MDDs == the weapon die pushes it too far in the greataxe's favour, but there are other ways to tame that. Balance != does the same effect. It means having the same amount of fun.

If you want to do the most damage, use the biggest sword. Case closed. If you want to last longer against multiple enemies, use a shield. This is basic stuff IMO. The maneuver system + MDDs shouldn't exist just to turn your weapon choice into mere fluff.
 

A'koss

Explorer
Gorgorath, I think there is a better way to address distinctiveness with particular weapons than creating massive damage disparities then trying to patch them up with maneuvers (and I assume a whole array of skill tricks too for the rogues).

Just keep the skill-based damage as d6s, lower the overall number of dice - which it appears they will do and will help broaden create a little more difference in damage between the weapons. Then simply broaden the "utility" feats for weapons (like Warding Polearm, the Shield Feats, etc...) which will allow for more creative advantages with particular weapons without creating massive these damage disparities. Feats that then can be picked up by anyone and damage output becomes more predictable and easier to balance encounters against.
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
Fair enough, but I wasn't advocating massive disparities, just proportional ones across the levels. I.e. at level 20 a fighter is still 2x as damaging with a plain greatsword than a shortsword. Whether that qualifies as "massive" is up to you. The cost difference between those weapons is next to nil, so the big differentiator is : what AC and / or maneuvers are worth 1.5-2x the damage? Maybe a certain fighting style allows you to do 1d8 with a shortsword and 1d10 with a longsword, so you get those multiplied bonuses. I'd even say that's a good design space for magic item +ses.

A +1 mace is just d8 damage now. Very neat, IMO. So a high level fighter benefits from using a magic sword disproportionately more than a low level one. Not sure if they'd ever ditch the sacred cow of +1 to damage, but this is more like +1 to hit and +1 step up in damage die, for an effective +1 bonus to damage per MDD.
 

Dragoslav

First Post
I like what they said about narrative-affecting maneuvers like Taunt, especially in that they consider such maneuvers "character-defining." So if you want your Rogue to be a fast-talking con-man, the doesn't translate mechanically into just having a really high Charisma score, but instead you also have an ability that illustrates that narrative concept mechanically by letting you do something related to that more or less reliably. It's very 4e.
 

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