2 Questions

[Peter Gibbons]

The tricky words are "even if" which could imply there is more than is being stated.

No, it really doesn't. "I will give you twenty dollars, even if you punch me in the face" doesn't say anything about what I'll do with the money if you kick me in the nuts.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Now personally I play it as infinity mentioned, but I do understand its not clear as glass.

I don't know. I'd say glass was quite clear when he said that my reading was the most straight forward.

Edit: Peter:

 

[Artoomis]

The prblem is that "Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized" included the word "even."

Had that word been ommitted, it would have been limited to the two listed instance only, wihout question. The word "even" leaves open the possible interpretation of this to mean in all circumstances except when immobilized.

The FAQ has a few entires on this topic. Taken as a whole, it would seem that what you want to do here is to see if a feint is more like some form of immobilization or more like being flat-footed.

Feinting in Combat
You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

This seems to me to be somewhat in-between - you are not flat-footed, just distracted - which is not immobile, either. I think, for me, I'd probably allow Uncanny Dodge to work against a Feint. It seems to fit within the spirit of Uncanny Dodge. I think it's really a case of a need for a FAQ entry if you want a definitive ruling.

 

[Coredump]

?

I don't read it as "some examples..." because it obviously does not say "some examples..." It's not even possible to read it that way because the two conditions in which a rogue retains his Dex bonus are explicitly listed.

I know YOU don't, but apparently Karin's Dad does, and I can understand that version.

If the rule is really only applicable in those two specific examples, why bother writing "even if", it makes no sense. Using those seems to indicate that of the myriad of times that the rogue does not lose her Dex bonus, those two are the most 'outrageous', so they are called out.

"I will give you twenty dollars, even if you punch me in the face" doesn't say anything about what I'll do with the money if you kick me in the nuts.

It does not rule out exceptions, but it also does *not* mean "I will give you twenty dollars *only* if you punch me in the face." Which is what you and I2K are arguing.

I need some money, you say "I will give you $20." That does not have any conditions on it. Conditions and exceptions *may* exist, you do not rule them out, but they are not known to exist. So the default is that no matter what, you will give me $20.

Now, since I have a habit of punching you in the face, you state "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" The default is still in place, you are giving me $20, but you have clarified one of the 'edge cases' that may have been an exception to your statement. So, you will give me $20, and it doesn't matter if I punch you in the face or not. But it still does not rule out other possible conditions or exceptions, they *may* exist, but the default is that you will give me $20.

Since I also have a habit of kicking you in the nuts...you say "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face. However, if you will not get the $20 if you kick me in the nuts"

Now if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is the *same* as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face", which is what is being asserted, they why even need the "however", since that is clearly not one of the two things listed.

And if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is *not* the same as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face",

Then why do you say "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker." is the same as "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) only when she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.?

 

[FEADIN]

And for the climbers....
While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).Does Uncanny dodge works for climbers?
I would say :No.
Because some PrC special abilities give you that power, not the U.Dodge.

 

[KarinsDad]

And for the climbers....
While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).Does Uncanny dodge works for climbers?
I would say :No.
Because some PrC special abilities give you that power, not the U.Dodge.

This falls into the immobilized category (i.e. cannot move), so it doesn't illustrate anything. We already know that Uncanny Dodge does not work for an immobilized Rogue.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Climbing = immobilized? Cannot move to avoid a blow is vastly different than cannot move at all, at which point you couldn't even be climbing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, precisely so. I don't understand why there is any confusion about this.

Because of the word "even".

The sentence:

She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

has a slightly different literal meaning than:

She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.


The second sentence is all inclusive.

The first sentence is not.

You are interpreting the first sentence as if it does not have the word "even" in it at all. The word "even" changes the emphasis of the sentence from "if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker" to "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)". "Even" is an emphasis word which implies examples.


A different example:

I will follow you even if you leave the state.

means that I will follow you regardless of what you do.

I will follow you if you leave the state.

means that I will only follow you if you leave the state.


It also seems odd that she has an ability that protects against someone who surprises her (i.e. flatfooted in surprise round) or invisible (might be totally unaware of), but not someone she can see.

 

[KarinsDad]

Climbing = immobilized? Cannot move to avoid a blow is vastly different than cannot move at all, at which point you couldn't even be climbing.

It depends on what you consider "immobile".

Immobility to all movement, or only immobility to the type of movement which would allow a Dex Bonus.

For example, being grappled is a state of immobility to movement which would allow a Dex Bonus. I do not consider that Uncanny Dodge works in a Grapple case either because the character is not in a state of "free movement", just like when climbing.

However, if you make a grapple check, you can actually move and take your grappler with you. You are not "immobilized" completely, you are merely prevented from moving enough to get your Dex bonus to AC.

But, YMMV on this.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually, your example on using grapple would lead one to the opposite conclusion. Specifically, being pinned is called being "immobile" so that if you are in a grapple and not pinned, then necessarily you are not "immobile", using the exact same term. So, by that reasoning, having Uncanny Dodge should allow you to retain your Dex bonus in a grapple (unless you are pinned).