2 Questions

[KarinsDad]

Actually, your example on using grapple would lead one to the opposite conclusion. Specifically, being pinned is called being "immobile" so that if you are in a grapple and not pinned, then necessarily you are not "immobile", using the exact same term. So, by that reasoning, having Uncanny Dodge should allow you to retain your Dex bonus in a grapple (unless you are pinned).

Yes, that is a reasonable literal interpretation as well.

I can easily see Uncanny Dodge preventing you from losing your Dex Bonus when Climbing or when Grappled if you consider "immobilized" to mean all possible movement.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Now if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is the *same* as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face", which is what is being asserted,

No, that is not what is being asserted.

they why even need the "however", since that is clearly not one of the two things listed.

And if "I will give you $20, even if you punch me in the face" is *not* the same as ""I will give you $20, *only when* you punch me in the face",

Then why do you say "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker." is the same as "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) only when she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.?

Let me try to explain it to you again, since you clearly haven't understood what is actually being said.

A rogue (or anyone else) retains her Dexterity bonus to AC unless there is some explicit exception that applies. Those exceptions include (1) being flat-footed, (2) being struck by an invisible attacker, (3) being stunned, (4) being the victim of a feint, etc. This is the normal state of affairs, or the "default" if you prefer.

The uncanny dodge ability allows a rogue to retain her Dexterity bonus to AC even if certain exceptions to the normal rules apply, and states what those exceptions-to-the-exceptions are: (1) even if flat-footed, and (2) even if struck by an invisible attacker. It says nothing about being stunned, the victim of a feint, etc. and therefore, in those situations, the normal rules apply.

Note that this is very different from saying "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) only when she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker," as you claim. If that were the case, the rogue would lose her Dexterity bonus to AC in normal situations (where she is not flat-footed, struck by an invisible attacker, stunned, etc.)!

 

[Peter Gibbons]

A different example:

I will follow you even if you leave the state.

means that I will follow you regardless of what you do.

No, it doesn't. It says nothing about what you will do if I leave the COUNTRY.

EDIT: It also says nothing about what you will do if I kick you in the nuts.

I will follow you if you leave the state.

means that I will only follow you if you leave the state.

That's correct. And that's why the same language wouldn't work in the case of uncanny dodge: because then a rogue would retain her Dexterity bonus to AC only if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker, and not in the usual cases where everyone else retains the bonus.

 

[KarinsDad]

Let me try to explain it to you again, since you clearly haven't understood what is actually being said.

Let me try to explain it to you again, since you clearly haven't understood what is actually being said.

The phrase "even if" does not mean "if".

See example above.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, it doesn't. It says nothing about what you will do if I leave the COUNTRY.

If you leave the country, you leave the state.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

If you leave the country, you leave the state.

And yet, you're not obligated to follow me out of the COUNTRY merely because you pledged to follow me even if I left the STATE.

Do you get it yet?

 

[KarinsDad]

And yet, you're not obligated to follow me out of the COUNTRY merely because you pledged to follow me even if I left the STATE.

Do you get it yet?

You are the person who does not get it.

"even if" means "regardless of whether".

It does not mean "if".


"I will give you twenty dollars even if you punch me in the face"

does not mean:

"I will give you twenty dollars if you punch me in the face"

nor does it mean:

"I will give you twenty dollars only if you punch me in the face"

It does not prevent the person from giving the other person $20 under all other circumstances.

Period.


All "even if" does is specify a circumstance which although it normally would prevent the action, will definitively not prevent it.


"I will follow you even if you leave the state" means "I will follow you". The latter part of the sentence is just a further clarification that leaving the state will not prevent the person from following, even though typically it might. There are NO exclusions listed.


Now, if you can give an example where "even if" means "only if", then you would have support for your position.

But, such an example would not prove anything even if you made it.

All it would illustrate is that a different interpretation would be possible.

 

[Infiniti2000]

"even if" means "regardless of whether".

Do you have a source for this definition? I can't find a definition of the whole phrase itself (on-line anyway, using m-w, dictionary, or wikipedia).

 

[Hypersmurf]

"I will follow you even if you leave the state" means "I will follow you". The latter part of the sentence is just a further clarification that leaving the state will not prevent the person from following, even though typically it might. There are NO exclusions listed.

But the exclusions exist elsewhere - otherwise the 'typically it might' case doesn't exist.

If the law says that you can only follow someone as long as they don't cross state or federal borders, then "I will follow you" can be presumed to include "unless you cross a state or federal border".

"I will follow you, even if you leave the state" means that you're negating the standing exclusion on following him across state borders. But because there still exists an exclusion on following him across a federal border, he can reasonably expect that leaving the country will get you off his tail.

Same with Uncanny Dodge. The normal rule is that one retains one's Dex bonus, except when flat-footed, attacked by an invisible creature, successfully feinted, immobilised, grappled, etc.

But a rogue with Uncanny Dodge has an ability that removes some of those exceptions. He retains his Dex bonus, even if flat-footed or attacked by an invisible creature. Those two exclusions are struck from the list.

The others remain.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

...-Hyp.

I think this is the most reasonable reading. It could have been phrased better, but, well... it wasn't!