D&D (2024) 2024 Astral Plane

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If you look at the 5e DMG, it's pretty clear that the astral plane is just a plane that you travel through on the way to an outer plane. It does not imply or state that the outer plane is floating inside the astral like an island.

DMG page 58

"Traveling between the Outer Planes isn't dissimilar from reaching the Outer Planes in the first place. Characters traveling by means of the astral projection spell can go from one plane into the Astral Plane, and there search out a color pool leading to the desired destination."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Can you clarify? Are you sure it is true that the "Outer Planes play by their own individual rules?"

According to the 5e DMs Guide (59), the "peculiar characteristics" of each Outer Plane are "Optional Rules".
The rules are optional, not the fact that the outer planes have their own rules.

"Each o f the Outer Planes has peculiar characteristics that make traveling through it a unique experience. A plane's influence can affect visitors in various ways, such as causing them to take on personality traits or flaws that reflect the disposition of the plane, or even shift alignment to more closely match the native inhabitants of the plane. Each plane's description includes one or more optional rules that you can use to help make the adventurers' experiences on that plane memorable."

The first portion is fact. It has peculiar characteristics that make them unique experiences. The second part says that here are some optional rules that you can use to reflect that fact.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
You're missundestanding the picture. The astral does not contain the other planes floating within it like islands. It's the backdrop of the multiverse that touches all of the other planes.

Think of it like this. You have a massive plane called the astral. At a point on that plane, the plane borders the Abyss. At another point it borders Greyhawk. At a third point it borders Gehenna. And so on.
The Astral Plane does more than "touch" other planes. It overlays other planes. For example, a wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlays a world system in the Material Plane.

The rules are optional, not the fact that the outer planes have their own rules.

"Each o f the Outer Planes has peculiar characteristics that make traveling through it a unique experience. A plane's influence can affect visitors in various ways, such as causing them to take on personality traits or flaws that reflect the disposition of the plane, or even shift alignment to more closely match the native inhabitants of the plane. Each plane's description includes one or more optional rules that you can use to help make the adventurers' experiences on that plane memorable."

The first portion is fact. It has peculiar characteristics that make them unique experiences. The second part says that here are some optional rules that you can use to reflect that fact.

That is fine.

"Each of the Outer Planes has peculiar characteristics that make traveling through it a unique experience. A planes influence can affect visitors, ... such as causing them to take on personality traits ... of the plane."

I assume the same is true of any dominion.

The same is true for domains in the Feywild and the Shadowfell as well.

The Astral Plane especially is a realm of "thought and dream". The phenomena are more so mental events than they are their apparent sensorial interface.

A domain pertains to a specific concept or structure of related concepts. These concepts relate to the imagery and exert influence within the domain.
 

It's confusing because there is a design overlap. In the Great Wheel Cosmology the Astral and the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel were different and the Gods' realms were in the Outer Planes. In the World Axis cosmology of 4E, the Astral Dominions are the Gods' realms. If Wizards wants to use them both, they have to clarify/redefine how they fit, like they did with Wildspace and the Astral, in Astraljammer.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The Astral Plane does more than "touch" other planes. It overlays other planes. For example, a wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlays a world system in the Material Plane.
The material plane is not the outer planes. It lies in the center of all things, so it makes sense for the astra to surround individual worlds
"Each of the Outer Planes has peculiar characteristics that make traveling through it a unique experience. A planes influence can affect visitors, ... such as causing them to take on personality traits ... of the plane."

I assume the same is true of any dominion.

The same is true for domains in the Feywild and the Shadowfell as well.

The Astral Plane especially is a realm of "thought and dream". The phenomena are more so mental events than they are their apparent sensorial interface.

A domain pertains to a specific concept or structure of related concepts. These concepts relate to the imagery and exert influence within the domain.
Which is fine. I was just answering the questions of, "Can you clarify? Are you sure it is true that the "Outer Planes play by their own individual rules?"

They do in fact(at least by default) play by their own individual rules, whether you want to have them float inside the astral or keep them as outer planes. :)
 
Last edited:

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's confusing because there is a design overlap. In the Great Wheel Cosmology the Astral and the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel were different and the Gods' realms were in the Outer Planes. In the World Axis cosmology of 4E, the Astral Dominions are the Gods' realms. If Wizards wants to use them both, they have to clarify/redefine how they fit, like they did with Wildspace and the Astral, in Astraljammer.
They aren't using them both. The Great Wheel is the default cosmology. The World Axis is one of the alternate cosmologies a DM can choose to use.

"The World Axis
In this view of the cosmos, the Material Plane and its echoes stand between two opposing realms. The Astral Plane (or Astral Sea) floats above them, holding any number of divine domains (the Outer Planes). Below the Material Plane is the Elemental Chaos, a single, undifferentiated elemental plane where all the elements clash together. At the bottom of the Elemental Chaos is the Abyss, like a hole torn in the fabric of the cosmos."
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Some of the Outer Planes have infinite space. Some even have multiple levels, where each level has its own infinite space.

In the Astral Plane, no problem. All of it is a virtual reality, that a mind experiences. An infinity of infinities can fit inside a persons skull, or inside ones subjective disembodied mind.

Defacto, the floating island in the Astral Sea is like a portal that leads into the infinite Outer Plane. The appearance of the island is like a grand entrance with tropes and flavors that cohere with the concepts of a wider plane that becomes more apparent and larger as one walks thru it.

The Astral Plane is a realm of thought and dream. Some dreams are more like the dream of an entire culture − the archetypes of a collective unconscious or the principles of a philosophical structure. The interpersonal dynamic is more stable and enduring than the subjective whim of an individual within the culture. Some Astral phenomena can be persistent.

Alignments are ethical systems made out of thoughts, ideas, and ideals. One expects there to be dominions in the Astral Sea that cohere with a specific alignment. Some of these dominions are infinite − a reality to itself − and a dominion can be this and some of them are this.
 

In D&D 5e, the Astral Plane of 2024 remains unclear because so far 2014 is often silent. The recent 5e Spelljammer setting elaborates the Astral Sea and even mentions the dominions appear as if "floating islands" within it, but details none of them. 5e tends especially silent about the Good Dominions. Glimpses get a mention here and there, like the Elf originating in the Chaotic Good dominion of Arborea, the Angel from Lawful Good Mount Celestia, and the Tabaxi from Good by Chaotic Good Beastlands. But the dominions themselves stay vague. 5e Planescape is coming soon. It will detail at least some of the alignment dominions. Even so this thread especially considers the 2024 Astral Plane, emphasizing the known features that are popular, extrapolating from the few details, comparing features from earlier editions, and noting features that might be problematic if any. Sorting thru all of this, helps get a sense of the 2024 Astral Plane to come.


The 5e DMs Guide describes − and Spelljammer elaborates − the Astral Plane is "a realm of thought and dream". The phenomena there are made out of thoughts, like people and places that one meets in a dream. Sensations like material solidity or moving thru space are actually symbolic information constructs (like playing in the virtual reality of a video game). This realm of thought appears as if an Astral Sea, a breathable celestial ocean that one flies or sails thru. Swirling luminous stardust clouds the view of distant stars in places. A star is actually a star in the Material Plane, viewable from within the "wildspace", where Astral thought constructs overlay a Material solar system. Stars that are impossibly far away in the Material Plane can be reached via the Astral Sea. Voyagers dematerialize into thought constructs that can travel at the speed of thought, then rematerialize at the remote destination, effectively teleporting vast distances of the Material Plane.

Also within the Astral Sea are the Astral dominions. Each is a conceptual structure that appears symbolically as if a floating island, a realm to itself. Its interior can be larger than the exterior seems. Features might loom larger as one approaches them from within in. Entrances might lead into spaces that are endless. Distance is as in a dream. The nearness or farness depends on the how concepts associate with each other.

Some of these dominions are the paradigm of a specific alignment, such as the Chaotic Good Dominion of Arborea or the True Neutral Dominion of the Outlands. There are also intermediate alignments such as the Chaotic by Chaotic Evil dominion of Pandemonium (also called Chaotic with Evil tendencies, or jocularly Chaotic Evilish). Thus each of the seventeen alignments that derive from the Outer Planes of 1e exists in 5e as an Astral dominion. The 5e cosmology in the Players Handbook presents them as a diagram where each is next to its conceptual binary neighbor. But actually these alignment domains scatter across the Astral Sea.

The 5e adventure, Balders Gate: Descent into Avernus, details the first of the Nine Hells of Baator, namely of the Lawful Evil dominion.

Earlier in D&D, 3e evolves conflicting cosmologies, including the Forgotten Realms Tree, the Eberron Orrery, and the Planescape Wheel. 4e reconciles these within an Astral Sea where any locale might be found as a dominion. 5e continues this Astral Sea cosmology, but reemphasizes the alignment dominions that derive from the 1e Outer Planes via the Planescape Wheel of 2e and 3e. In 5e, there are sixteen Outer Planes (not seventeen). The True Neutral Astral Dominion of Outlands counts separately as a different kind of plane. The Outlands where Sigil is is its own dominion somewhere in the Astral Sea. Relating to the 5e cosmology map in the Players Handbook, the Elemental Chaos situates where one might expect the Outlands. Possibly, the Outlands relates to the Elemental Chaos.

Additionally, the Astral Sea features other domains that have nothing to do with alignments, and organize according to other conceptual frameworks besides alignment.

The 5e alignment domains fling far from each other across the Sea. But from within, they connect to each other because of conceptual comparisons and contrasts. The binary structure of the alignments reminds each alignment of the other, and gates link two domains where common resemblances are strong. The gate to a specific alignment dominion can take the form of a disk-shape rippling colored pool. Like stray thoughts, sometimes such pools appear remotely within the Astral Sea.

Currently, 5e supplies a comprehensive sense of the Astral Sea. 5e Planescape is coming soon. But so far, the details of the alignment dominions remain largely unknown. Especially the Good dominions lack content with only sporadic details.

Since D&D 1e, ethical values organize into a binary structure. A "Good-Evil" axis intersects a "Chaotic-Lawful" axis. Their coordinates comprise eight alignments plus "True Neutral" at the center.

The Good-Evil axis is frequency of compassionate actions.
Good is altruistic, striving to benefit others as well as oneself.
Evil is predatory, benefiting oneself at the expense of others.

The Chaotic-Lawful axis defines who ones "self" is.
Chaotic is an individual identity with personal needs.
Lawful identifies with a group with collective needs.

The True Neutral alignment is a mix among the other alignments. Creatures less able to make ethical decisions, such as most Beasts and Constructs, are Unaligned.


The intersection of the two axes plays out according to the following ethical values for each the nine alignments.


Chaotic Good empowers the individual identity. They emphasize personal freedoms, chosen friendships, and spontaneous self-expression. They also feel strong empathy for others and make efforts to meet their individual needs. They encourage each other to discover ones own best version of oneself, to liberate individuals from oppression, rescue them from distress, and find ways to enjoy the unique talents of each person. They often welcome competition, show off individual prowess, and playfully brag. Businesses flourish within niches and by innovation. Arts of all kinds flourish everywhere. There are many ways to be beautiful. Chaotic Good allies form intense personal bonds that eschew societal expectations. They will be there in times of need. One can rely on any commitments made one-on-one between friends.

True Good, also called Neutral Good, is compassionate actions. They strive to increase the frequency of compassionate actions among themselves and others, in voluntary and sustainable ways, to achieve as much wellbeing as possible for as many people as possible. Each strives to love others as much as one loves oneself. They nurture self-love as well as the altruistic love for others. They optimize between individual needs and group needs, whichever can achieve the greater Good in any particular situation. They economize limited resources to further as much Good as possible. They tend to support a group identity that is a framework to safeguard the diverse individual identities within it. Legal systems that enforce personal freedoms, tend toward the True Good alignment. Yet they are likely to speak of "ethics", and view "laws" as tools whose validity depends on whether they maximize Good. At the same time, they expect most individuals to find more wellbeing when cooperating with others within a group. They seek to do no harm, but require individuals to defend themselves against any who do harm. Reciprocity is key. True Good makes great effort to empower those individuals and groups who seem likely use this power to assist even more groups or individuals who do Good. Ten Good who empower each other become vastly more powerful than ten Evil who tear each other apart. One can count on True Good to help others to do Good, and to show empathy toward Non-Good.

Lawful Good empowers the group identities, such as citizens of a nation or members of a societal institution. Members work together to better the group as a whole, and often adopt shared group obligations, such as laws or policies. The societal expectations function as virtues that one develops a discipline to fulfill. The groups tend to ally with other groups: such as an treaty between two ethical nations, or a wealthy community founding an institution to empower an impoverished community. They value multiculturalism, where the different ethnic and religious identities cooperate together as groups. Sophisticated groups coordinate the specializations of each group to benefit from each others strengths and to cover for each others weaknesses. They care about justice and a society that is fair, and work hard to improve life for everyone. One can count on those obligations of group that are decent, and on the expectations to do the right thing.


Lawful Neutral means group identity. The self is made out of the groups that one belongs to. To speak with one is to engage in the values of a nation, the mores of a religion, the pride of a prominent extended family, the concerns of any parents and siblings who arent even present physically. They follow rules stoically to the best of ones ability, and celebrate those who sacrifice to fulfill collective needs. They feel a powerful sense of honor when ones own group accepts and esteems them as members, but feel debilitating shame if outcast from the group. To be shunned is a death of self, and often worse than to die bodily. They tend to view others according to stereotypes that they assign to the members of other groups. They value responsibility, standardization, repetition, expectations of tradition, status quo, and collectivism. One cannot rely on any actions on behalf of personal friendships. But one can count on the fulfillment of binding treaties, collective laws, institutional policies, legal contracts, and family obligations to be carried out in full.

True Neutral is a dynamic mix of the other alignments. Often a single individual is the mix, such as kind to some people and unkind to other people. They encourage a live and let live attitude. They are always pragmatic, and often intentionally amoral. They deal with the realities at hand, as constructively and as conveniently as possible. They might be apathetic if without too much disruption, or principled with a realpolitik on behalf of the largest percentage of individuals and groups. There is tolerance for any individuals and groups who succeed, but little regard for small percentages who come to harm. Civility, diplomacy, negotiations − and bribery − are values. There is equal opportunity, but individuals and groups do well to fend for themselves. Perhaps the only extreme is the insistence on a safespace to be moderate. One can count on any beneficial legal contracts with groups and on any mutual commitments with individuals. But nothing excessive endures.

Chaotic Neutral means individual identity. They attend to personal needs, desires, pleasures, and ambitions. Personal freedoms are the priority. They respect the accomplishments of other individuals. There is zero regard for any laws or societal expectations that they didnt personally agree to. They either ignore or are oblivious to undesirable rules. They form intense bonds with chosen friends and allies. Communities aggregate like molecules comprising various arrangements between various individuals, who are often surprisingly diverse. They might get uncomfortable if others become dependent on them, but are patient with loved ones, and can be extraordinarily generous if no strings attached. They value freedom, innovation, variation, surprises of progress, utility, and individualism. One cannot rely on any implied obligations. But one can count on the fulfillment of a personal commitment, especially if a solemn vow or sincere promise.


Chaotic Evil behaves solely for ones own benefit. They lack empathy for the wellbeing of others and disregard any laws or societal expectations. They tend toward criminality, whether brazen or sneaky. The conflicts between Chaotic Evil versus Lawful Good are obvious. They view Lawful as laughable and Good as vulnerable. Some endeavor to gain dominance over others. The resulting governments are tyrannical and tumultuous, often with a cult of personality and hierarchies of intimidation − and frequent assassinations. Each member calculates ones own costs-versus-benefits. The punishments for disobeying a superior tend dissuasive, even wrathful, cruel and unusual. They often target the loved ones of their enemies. Personal friendships can be sincere and across identity groups, as long as they dont get in each others way. One can count on an arrangement to benefit oneself but must avoid any pretense of obligation.

True Evil, also called Neutral Evil, is predatory in pragmatic way. They resort to both their group identity and their individual identity, whichever optimizes more advantage. Their competence with alternate tactics and the lack of empathy for anyone, comes across psychopathic. They often fanaticize other members of a group to seize power over other groups, while also conspiring with individuals to achieve more personal power. They happily betray either if expedient. They often fulfill societal obligations for the sake of self-serving motives, and build personal relationships for the sake of tactical alliances among groups. To seize opportunities while evaluating reality astutely are inherent skills. The True Good alignment often envies these skills. The resulting governments of True Evil tend to be cautionary tales of corruption and destabilization, with shocking discoveries of horrific abuse in dark places. One can count on arrangements that benefit ones "self", but must continually track whether group benefits or personal benefits prove the most opportune.

Lawful Evil is a predatory pack mentality. It is national chauvinism, ethnic supremacism, religious fanaticism, aristocratic elitism, criminal mafia family obligations, street gang loyalty, neighborhood lynch mob, or so on. The group as a whole is predatory, with policies and behaviors that actively exploit and harm the members of other groups. The mentality is "us versus them", without empathy for "them". Typically they form empires that assert and supposedly "deserve" dominance over the other groups. Individuals sacrifice for the glory of their group. The concerns for the group, its laws and norms, are more important than the needs of members within it. Even leaders can become expendable if deviating from collective values. The collective dehumanizes outsiders. Often they formally demonize others and seek to remove any legal rights from others. They might even be intolerant toward insiders that dont fit in with the rest of the group. Sometimes the group does far more cruelty to these insider dissidents who are perceived as a threat from within. There can be a grudging acknowledgement of an other group that seems similar to ones own group, especially if such acknowledgement is tactically useful for the promotion of ones own group. But imperialism, expansionism, and conquest eventually overtake any mutual alliance. Those who benefit from the group tend to enforce the group, and those who dont benefit fear the group and seek ways to pretend. Affection for other members of the group can be sincere, but betrayal and ostracism result when deviating from the societal norms. Lawful Evil is almost synonymous with dysfunctional. The group functions and survives, but painfully so for some of its members. One cannot rely on a sense of fairness or even on mercy from loved ones. But one can count on any laws, policies, or societal expectations to be enforced to the fullest extent that power makes possible.


These are the nine alignments of D&D that result from a vertical Good-Evil access and a horizontal Chaotic-Lawful axis, plus a True Neutral center. Unaligned is uninvolved with these nine, but sometimes defaults as if True Neutral. The descriptions pertain to 5e and describe Chaotic and Lawful in terms of individual versus group, respectively. Other interpretations of the alignments might exist in different editions, campaign settings, or ones own gaming tables.
I didn’t read the ethical spoiler, but your description of the Astral sea is pretty much what have been using since 4e and into 5e
 

They aren't using them both. The Great Wheel is the default cosmology. The World Axis is one of the alternate cosmologies a DM can choose to use.

"The World Axis
In this view of the cosmos, the Material Plane and its echoes stand between two opposing realms. The Astral Plane (or Astral Sea) floats above them, holding any number of divine domains (the Outer Planes). Below the Material Plane is the Elemental Chaos, a single, undifferentiated elemental plane where all the elements clash together. At the bottom of the Elemental Chaos is the Abyss, like a hole torn in the fabric of the cosmos."
Divine Dominions are part of the World Axis Cosmology from 4E, not the Great Wheel Cosmology of earlier editions. So what do Divine Dominions mean now in the 5E version of the Great Wheel Cosmology? They weren't in the 2014 DMG. Spelljammer introduces them to 5E saying that some gods have Divine Dominions in the Astral Plane. That wasn't a thing in the old Great Wheel Cosmology. God's realms were solely in the Outer Planes that matched their alignment (that is how my Home Campaign works).

Does Pelor still have a divine realm in Elysium called Hestavar? Or a Divine Dominion in the Astral Plane called Hestavar?

There is overlap in design here, and it is not clear to me what they intend. I did a search and found other people thinking the exact way I was.


I hope that Planescape clarifies things.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
By the way, @Vaalingrade and @DEFCON 1, and others, mention the cosmologies that you prefer and use in your own game. I feel this is important. The designers need to know this kind of thing, in order to avoid baking in various details that prove to be "pain points" among a number of gamers later.
I use the Elemental Chaos, Shadowfell and Feywild basically as-is for D&D, then replace the Astral with the MtG Blind Eternities connecting other prime materials.

I don't use the outer planes because I don't use alignment and also don't want an easily visitable afterlife. Gods have to live on the same Prime as their worshippers because setting yourself apart from the people who prop you up isn't cool.
 

Remove ads

Top