3.5 breakdown at high levels?

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
I am not sure if this answers the question (especially since I can't speak for Hussar), but: It wrote the mechanical effects of all powers of the monsters in the stat-block. :) And it has a guideline on how to adjust the powers if you gain levels (of course, the only thing that you need to change is damage values - the status effects don't need adjustment)

This is possible because 4e monsters "do less." They don't have nearly as much extraneous information presented in the statblock.

Of course, this is simply the functional, codified expression of the following:

"Where did that dragon's 10 skill points go? Well, they went to Knowledge (Local) and Forgery, and were not relevant to combat."

and

"Why did you only choose three 1st level spells for him when he should have six? Because the other three spells were Identify, Unseen Servant, and Comprehend Languages, and were not relevant to combat."

etc.
 

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Fenes

First Post
3e rules are not flexible. There is nothing in the rules that says, "Hey, it's okay if you're off by a point or two, don't sweat it." That is completely and totally absent from any 3.5 rulebook. The 3.x rules are very, very specific. They go down a point by point list on how to add levels, add hit dice, or add a template.

But, let's look at specifics shall we? Look at the Vampire Template from the D20 SRD. Where in there does it say anything about fudging or ad hoc'ing? Which elements are ok to leave off and ignore? Which one absolutely have to be covered?

Sure, Rule Zero is there. I know that. But, at the end of the day, the RULES are certainly not showing a whole lot of flexibility here. You go down the checklist, you make the adjustments and get your new monster.

I agree with you Fenes. I fudged it all the time too. Maybe not to the degree that I can wing a CR 17 dragon ;) but, I certainly didn't sweat all the small points.

But that doesn't matter. We're not discussing Hussar's D&D, or Fenes D&D. We're discussing 3.x D&D. 3.x D&D says that when you advance a creature, you follow X, Y and Z steps. It certainly does not say, "Hey, here's fifteen steps to advancing this creature, feel free to ignore steps 7, 9 and 11, they won't come up in play that often."

Rule Zero is enough. You can't really call the system inflexible if it is flexible. And there is nothing that is essential. There's nothing that can't be adhocced or ignored.
 

Benimoto

First Post
Before 4th edition came out, I DMed my 3.5 campaign all the way to 20th level. I saw most of the previously mentioned breakdowns. Combats would take 30 minutes to prepare, last 90 minutes in real time but only go 2 rounds in the game. I felt the need to constantly monitor and negotiate the inclusion of splatbook material with my players. Also, I saw a few problems that I don't think have been addressed yet.

One was only a problem for one or two of my players, but occasionally the amount of choices they had would overwhelm them for a minute or two on their turn. Spontaneous casters were particularly prone to this. By 18-20th level, they have a massive list of spells, several metamagic feats to modify those spells, and then equipment to further modify the spells on top of that.

And then of course, after you cast the spell, you have to add up all the dice and do all the math on it. That can end up as a giant, mostly meaningless waste of time. This would happen to even the fighters, since with all the energy enchants, bane enchantments and other stuff, every sword hit can involve 4-6 dice, and you can get 5 or even up to 10 attacks on your turn.

And, like all the other people chiming in, I had trouble keeping up with the amount of monster stats required. And they were completely required. I can't really just turn to the Monster Manual and pick out a random CR 17 creature. There's only 5 CR 17 creatures in the book! Nor is fudging on the fly always the answer. For many combats, I had like 3 different types of enemies fighting at once. As a made-up but plausible example, a combat might involve a Rakshasa Sorcerer 6, two Archer Demon Fighter 7s and two 18 HD Chuuls. "Just fudge it" is going to lead to inconsistent and frankly amateurish results. Sure I can ignore the skill points, but there are spells, feats, saves and all that other stuff that I don't want to have to keep in my head.

The campaign was a whole lot of fun, but when I read the 4th edition books, I knew I would never go back to 3.5, at least at high levels.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
3e rules are not flexible. There is nothing in the rules that says, "Hey, it's okay if you're off by a point or two, don't sweat it." That is completely and totally absent from any 3.5 rulebook. The 3.x rules are very, very specific. They go down a point by point list on how to add levels, add hit dice, or add a template.

While that quote is not in there, you might want to check out the section of the DMG under "Adjudicating" somewhere around page 6.

Then there's the bit under Statblocks that is pretty explicit about only including the stats you need for a particular situation for your own statblocks.

The 3.5 rules are in no way as rigid as you claim.
 

Spatula

Explorer
Really? What two feats would you add to a CR 15 dragon, in your head?
Two melee combat feats, or nothing. You can use X+1 warrior levels, instead, or monster HD. 2 dragon HD ~= 1 CR, according to the table in the back of the MM, and is pretty easy to apply as long as it doesn't bump the dragon up an age category (+1 BAB/HD, +1/2 all saves/HD). Minor monster advancement in this fashion is a lot like the ad-hoc monster advancement in 4e. A little more complicated, obviously, but you're basically just adding a small amount to the creature's HP, attack bonuses, and saves.

Never minding adding 10 skill points, 15 hit points, oops, did that bump the BAB high enough for iterative attacks? What happens when the dragon grapples?
If you really want to you could bump up a few combat skills by a point (to account for the higher cap) but I hardly see how that's going to make much of a difference either way. A high CR dragon will already be unable to fail at casting defensively.

Dragons don't get iterative attacks from high BAB. A flat bonus to your BAB is a flat bonus to your grapple check.

Of course, you're also ignoring 10 or 15 levels of sorcerer that have to be figured out for spells in that mix as well.
They've already been figured out for you - we're just added a few HD to an already-statted monster. Dragon spellcasting only improves when they move up an age category.
 

Spatula

Explorer
One was only a problem for one or two of my players, but occasionally the amount of choices they had would overwhelm them for a minute or two on their turn. Spontaneous casters were particularly prone to this. By 18-20th level, they have a massive list of spells, several metamagic feats to modify those spells, and then equipment to further modify the spells on top of that.
Information overload. A friend mentioned that as part of the reason he scrapped a Savage Tide campaign at level 14; the casters were overwhelmed with choices that they had no way to quickly evaluate (along with the other issues mentioned previously). Probably more of an issue for newer players, or those not prone to reading rulebooks in their spare time. :)
 

Gothmog

First Post
Information overload. A friend mentioned that as part of the reason he scrapped a Savage Tide campaign at level 14; the casters were overwhelmed with choices that they had no way to quickly evaluate (along with the other issues mentioned previously). Probably more of an issue for newer players, or those not prone to reading rulebooks in their spare time. :)

See, here is another place I find 3.x has a problem for my playstyle and what my group finds enjoyable: mechanical system mastery. The group I game with are not dumb people at all- at our table, we have 3 PhDs (neuroscience, physics, and chemical engineering), a small business owner with an MBA, and a lady with a master's in counseling. We're also not novices to gaming- I've been playing or DMing for 25 years, and most of the group has been gaming at least 10 years, with the exception of the counselor, who has been gaming about 2 years. We've played a variety of systems, from D20/D&D 3.x, to Savage Worlds, WHFRP2, Dark Heresy, Kult, Call of Cthulhu, and NWoD.

For us, the only game that causes the degree of consternation and problems that have been mentioned ad nauseum in this thread was D&D 3.x. In order to really understand and use the system efficiently, you have to devote quite a bit of spare time to studying the books, the rules, and finding out combos that work together well (just as you said in your post). While I admit I'm the most hardcore of the gamers in my group (I often read RPG books before I go to bed for an hour or so), most of my players don't have the necessary amount of free time to invest to gain mechanical system mastery of a ruleset. When we played D&D 3.x, there was always confusion about how certain rules worked, what spells did, and the pace of the game slowed to a crawl as people looked stuff up. The other frustrating thing for my group is they tend to think "outside the box" and come up with inventive plans for problems or during combat. The 3.x DMG suggest +/-2 to a given situation just didn't cut it for us, and all of the players told me they felt constrained and restricted by the 3.x ruleset moreso than they did by any other game.

And yes, while you can "wing it" with 3.x, its by far a subpar solution to the problem of prep time. I tried this for a while, and I have a pretty good grasp of the 3.x rules. When I found was I ended up with decidedly swingy results- either the encounter was way too easy, or much to hard. 3.x never did provide any kind of clue as to what an appropriate AC is for a CR 10 monster, or what its saves should be like, or damage output, or special abilities, etc. And it didn't help much to look at monster in the MMs or other sources for guidelines- as has been seen over the last 8 years, CRs were often wildly off. In fact, there was not even a way to figure out what CR a beastie should be other than "eyeball it and then fun 4 or 5 fights with PCs of given levels, and see which situation results in them using 25% of their resources." When everything else was so codified in the 3.x system, this aspect of monster and NPC design was seriously flawed and not well thought out. In order to try to avoid this excessive randomness and swinginess, I'd often use classed NPCs as antagonists, both for balance reasons, and because it made more sense for my homebrew world. Again, you run into a statting nightmare in short order. And while I did "fudge" things here as well (like skipping skill points), you can't really fudge with saves, feats, class abilities, spells, and gear- the NPCs needed those things to even have a remote shot at challenging the party. In short order, I came to truly dread prepping a 3.x game.

In short, when running 3.x, winging it always felt like I was being restrained by the rules- the rules were so interconnected that fudging stuff ended up having repurcussions down the line IME, and I found it was better to simply stat up what I needed in an abbreviated format (ie, no skills, bare bones feats and spells, etc). Even then, the amount of work was excessive to achieve the result I wanted, and the players simply didn't enjoy the system due to it heavily encouraging rules mastery, especially at higher levels. We quit 3.x and moved on to other systems about 3 years ago that didn't require them to spend huge amounts of time outside the game planning and reading, and we had a lot more fun. I also found I could FULLY prepare encounters in Savage Worlds, WHFRP or NWoD by the rules in a fraction of the time I could in 3.x, and they were better balanced because the rules weren't as interconnected and intricate. I can fudge and make stuff up in these systems on the fly if I need to, and its nowhere near the ordeal it was in 3.x.

I have to agree with Hussar here- if the DM can fudge and make it work, thats showing the DM's strengths, not the system's. In fact, I'd argue if the DM feels he MUST fudge to prep his game, the system is actually a problem, either due to complexity or simple unweildiness. The 3.x system is both of these things IMO, and is remarkably rigid and hard to adapt to other situations or genres in this regard due to the rules interconnectedness, assumptions about power and magic levels, etc.

When 4e came out, we gave it a shot, and found it plays a lot better than 3.x- creative tactics during play and innovative ideas for dealing with problems is rewarded, while the "build" aspect of 3.x is mostly gone. 4e also gives me better guidelines about what works and doesn't at a given level, and reduces the interconnectedness of the rules to a managable level. As a DM who has work and research obligations, I found this advice is a lifesaver and makes prepping a game FUN for me again, while taking a fraction of the time 3.x did. So I ask you, if I'm getting the same or better results in game while doing a fraction of the work, why would I ever go back?
 
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This is possible because 4e monsters "do less." They don't have nearly as much extraneous information presented in the statblock.
Absolutely. Now, tell me, what where these information there for if I fudge them anyway?

---

On a less "3E made me do it!" note, I wonder why I didn't fudge more. Why did I work out all these stat blocks. I mean, I don't think I am dumb (feel free to disagree) or anything. The answer might be a little more complex and unique to my situation. I see two factors:
(1) Our group has 5 regular members, and each of them runs his own campaign (that's not optional, unless a player really sucks at DMing. ;) ) Ths means we run only 1/5th of the time. This also means that I have approximately 5 weeks instead of 1 week to prepare for games.
I actually had the time to do all this stuff. I had the time to work out new monster stat-blocks to the last skill point. Of course, that didn't mean I actually got something useful done, or that it felt rewarding. I am not a particularly good DM, and I don't think that I spend more time working out monsters then hammering out the story and elements of the plot helped at all...

(2) I also played a lot of D&D characters over time. And I work them out to the last skill point - of course I do that, it's my own character. And I maintained at least 4 different characters (1 for each campaign), so I had a lot of experience in it. Of course I'd feel tempted to use the same sense for detail also for my NPCs and monsters.

---

Back to the "it's all 3E fault". Our DM for Savage Tides was the one that decided to convert his campaign to 4E - after we had just converted to Pathfinder. His reasoning was that he just had both to much to prepare for, and to much work running the encounters. The NPC spellcasters and monster with special abilities just put him off in the end, and he knew there was an alternative. And he ran so many adventures with high level NPCs - I know he could pull it off, he was capable of doing it.

He was also the guy that spend down before the game night to read up his PCs (which were usually pretty complex, often multi-classed or with cohorts of similar complexity) to ensure that he knew how to play the character. I wasn't much different in that regard, either, and I suppose it was the same for the rest.
This kind of preparation is part of the game experience, ultimately. Question is - do you like it? Do you need that? Do you want that?

It didn't feel exactly like homework to me (because I often didn't do my homework as a kid - or at least as an adolescent ;) ), but it is still pretty close. After the evening, if we had enough XP for a new level, I already planned in the time to level up my character. Before the next session, I'd read it up again and print it out again. And always did hours pass for it. Are these hours spent well? Are they "worth it". Or are these the 10 minutes of fun packed in 4 hours?

I don't think there is a universal answer, and I am not sure I have the answer for myself yet. But it might play into "the game breaking down at high levels".
 

I love disjunction.
Its one of the ways ive handled out of control players.

Ive never had a high level game break down. Ive played from level 5-136. And never once had a problem. Even with the myth of needing magical Items.
My 136th level character ended with a Belt of Gian Str +4, Was a Half Iron Golem (due to soe unfortunate circumstances), had a +1 Longsword and Headband of Intellect +2 and a Ring of Protection +1. Certainly not in line with what a 136th level character should have, let alont a level 20 character.
Just because the PCs or NPCS wipe the floor with some bad guys doesnt mean they are broken or that high level play is broken.
I think and I know im gonna get called Negative or mean, but if you CANT (I dont mean wont) DM a game with everything maybe thats not the game for you.
For instance I could run Inomine. Wasnt my game. It wasnt hard just annoying. It was me that was the problem, not the game. My friends ran it fine.

3.5 isnt the problem its the DM not being able to make adjustments to monsters on the fly or for not dealing with problem players o abilities.
 

Runestar

First Post
Really? What two feats would you add to a CR 15 dragon, in your head? Never minding adding 10 skill points, 15 hit points, oops, did that bump the BAB high enough for iterative attacks? What happens when the dragon grapples?

Whatever 2 feats I want, really. How hard can it be to add a few extra skill points, hp and bab? Dragons don't use iterative attacks anyways unless you had it take the rapidstrike feat tree. Really, I am not joking when I say that with a little practice, you should have no problems statting them out mentally in your head. Their stat block is that standardized.

Really, I find conceptualizing npcs' stats really the easiest part of 3e. The trickiest part was actually running them, because players really have a ton of resources at their disposal (or can access just about anything in a moment, such as wishing for it), so it is all these options which threaten to bog down the game.
 

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