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3.5 breakdown at high levels?

ashockney

First Post
The high level game in 3rd Edition and 3.5 was of particular interest to me. I've shared all my thoughts on it here on ENWorld. Most of these have been covered previously in this thread. Here are some other helpful references:


This one from 2004 highlights the problem:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=93424&page=1&pp=40

This one from 2005 highlights some of the best solutions:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=2142377

To answer your questions directly:
1. My monsters from the MM are mincemeat to even "commonly" min-maxed high level characters. For example, the weaponmaster can vorpal them, the rogue can blink/dual-wield/sneak/touch attack them, the archmage can insta-kill them with no reasonable chance at success, and the cleric can buff and heal his way out of any encounter.

2. See the second thread posted above for all the good ideas. To summarize, yes, simplify buffs, nerf the big-boy spells that need it, add in a handful of needed spells to save versmilitude, and make liberal use of character generators/npc generators/pre-fabbed modules and excel spreadsheets! Note - it doesn't hurt to have a table full of engineers or accountants!

3. The challenge with tweaking the rules at high level in third edition was three-fold. First, you shouldn't need to change the infrastructure of the core rules to play a game. For example, if you open a game, and see that in the set up, one player has a clear advantage, it's not a good start. It's one thing to say, "I ignore encumberance or alignment because they slow things down". It's another thing entirely to have one player that has an irrefutable/unavoidable advantage, and then say to "make it fun for everyone" you're going to take it away. Second, in third edition, the beauty of the system is that everything is inter-connected. This becomes a significant disadvantage when you start to play with those rules, particularly at high levels. An example of this I've seen often is to "tweak" the iterative attack model. This can pretty drastically change the balance of several classes unfairly. Finally, the extreme nature of the high level game is such that to change something on the fly, becomes much harder to justify. For example, I hit it again, that's over 2,000 hit points we've done to it so far this round, it's still not down? Nope. We start using skills to determine why that would be, because it doesn't seem to fit within the paradigm of the world we've come to understand the last 15 levels.
 

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Runestar

First Post
On a side note, I am thinking that maybe higher lv play simply was not playtested as much. The higher lv monsters in the 3.5 MM did not seem all that tough. The balor, for instance, seemed more like a cr16-17 in my experience (or perhaps my party was just more optimized than the one used by the designers during playtesting). Classed npcs proved much too weak for their cr, and tend to give players much more treasure than considered appropriate. 1 solo BBEG was just too easy to get locked down by a well-coordinated party.

In the very least, they seem somewhat weaker than monsters released in subsequent splatbooks, like MM3. Has anyone tried to correct these crs?
 

ashockney

First Post
On a side note, I am thinking that maybe higher lv play simply was not playtested as much. The higher lv monsters in the 3.5 MM did not seem all that tough. The balor, for instance, seemed more like a cr16-17 in my experience (or perhaps my party was just more optimized than the one used by the designers during playtesting). Classed npcs proved much too weak for their cr, and tend to give players much more treasure than considered appropriate. 1 solo BBEG was just too easy to get locked down by a well-coordinated party.

In the very least, they seem somewhat weaker than monsters released in subsequent splatbooks, like MM3. Has anyone tried to correct these crs?


The challenge with this is that these challenge ratings are very dependent upon the group. The same dragon that is a CR17 in the book, may be a pushover to one group of 17th level PC's (one round insta-kill), and may TPK another group of 18th level pc's.
 

All of that complication and painfully slow combat, is why I went 4th ed 9and I like 4th ed's changes, mostly).
IMHO, 3.5 is best left to a computer, as a DM *I* wish to have fun, not get burned out on overly complex rules & mathematics.

Adore playing "Temple of elemental Evil" on the PC, 3.5 is superb simulation, I really likw AoO, tweaking skill points, when the CPU handles all the rules!! But for me, it's horrible to play arouns a table and design as DM.
 

All of that complication and painfully slow combat, is why I went 4th ed 9and I like 4th ed's changes, mostly).
IMHO, 3.5 is best left to a computer, as a DM *I* wish to have fun, not get burned out on overly complex rules & mathematics.

Adore playing "Temple of elemental Evil" on the PC, 3.5 is superb simulation, I really like AoO's, tweaking skill points, when the CPU handles all the rules!! But for me, it's horrible to play around a table and design as DM.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
In the very least, they seem somewhat weaker than monsters released in subsequent splatbooks, like MM3. Has anyone tried to correct these crs?

The CRs have never been nor should ever have been more than a rough guideline. Every group's mileage may vary. This is particularly true with 3e. As you advance from level 1, with its already substantial number of choices, the tree of options grows with some branches being stronger than others.
So I don't think any correction is actually necessary. Look at the monster. It's estimated to be a particular challenge level against a "default" group. How does it appear to stack up against your players? Too tough? Knock it down a bit. Too weak? Bolster it a bit.
 


Stalker0

Legend
The other thing about high levels now vs when 3e came out, is there is a lot more stuff out there you can use.

Now some of it is blatant power creep. Others are simply combinations of feat X from book 1, item Y from book 2, and spell Z from book 3 that no one anticipated. That's going to happen as you get lots of splatbooks, so MM1 monsters start looking weaker when that happens.
 

Hussar

Legend
Now, to be fair, my experience with this has been less than others have reported. When I ran the World's Largest Dungeon, I allowed the players to pick pretty much whatever they wanted. Any book (with a few exceptions) was allowed and the dungeon only uses SRD monsters - although some are modified within the limits of the SRD.

I still found that I was killing PC's about once every three sessions. Maybe my players aren't all that good at powergaming. :)
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
The CRs have never been nor should ever have been more than a rough guideline. Every group's mileage may vary. This is particularly true with 3e. As you advance from level 1, with its already substantial number of choices, the tree of options grows with some branches being stronger than others.
So I don't think any correction is actually necessary. Look at the monster. It's estimated to be a particular challenge level against a "default" group. How does it appear to stack up against your players? Too tough? Knock it down a bit. Too weak? Bolster it a bit.

That's the crux of the issue. They promised a balanced system where things that come out in every book would be about the same power. So it didn't matter if someone took Skill Focus or Improved Toughness at their 12th level feat, they should be about the same power.

It didn't matter if you were using a CR 15 monster from MM1 or MM3, they should challenge the party "about" the same. And when I read "about", I believe it means it should challenge it as if it were about +/- 2 CRs.

Unfortunately, I've had 15th level parties fight CR 17s that they didn't even take damage from. They challenged them close to as much as a CR 5 would have. I've had CR 13s that nearly killed everyone.

It's because the math is really swingy. It's precisely because the numbers grow too far apart the higher the level you get, as I mention above.
 

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