D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Help my bard contribute [Thanks guys!]

[Shadeus]

I have a ranger that was in the same boat as you Pendragon. I wanted him to be a melee character and was intending to go the spring attack route too. But then I actually used my bow and realized that with a rapier, even with spring attack, allows you to do one attack at 1d6+1. While a long bow with two feats gives you TWO attacks at 1d8+2 (assuming you are within PBS) with only a -1 penalty on each attack. And the number of arrows will only go up. And the bow will use your probably higher Dex score to calculate your attack rolls instead of Str.

You could go straight bard then (if you were human) and get PBS, precise shot, and rapid shot by 3rd-level. You'd have 2nd-level spells, more skills, and better songs.

If you still want to stick with your spring attack example, you may want to consider going fighter 4/bard 1. You can still get spring attack at level 5, but at level 6, you could take weapon specialization as your feat at get an all-important +2 to damage. You also might want to get power attack as a feat to increase you damage potential. (I think you can still PA a rapier because it isn't light.)

 

[Roland Delacroix]

I posted a small rant before, but can't seem to find it any more. In short: the Bard is the number one damage dealer in a party and mid-high levels, and it just gets better with 3.5e. Consider that in the standard party there will be about 4 characters using weapons to fight; Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Bard. At mid levels that means about 10 attacks in a round, all getting +1 damage (or more) from Bardic song. Then factor in that because of the +1 to attack, maybe 2 of those attacks get through that otherwise would have missed. Once you get Inspire Courage it gets even better. Not only does the target hit more (doing more damage in a round) but he has more HP. That means he can go likely one more round without healing, freeing up the Cleric for another Harm (or whatever).

With the new rules at mid level a Bard can do 70-100 points of damage in a round before even taking an action. Simply through bardic Musicing the rest of the party. Toss a few enchantment save-or-die's and a Bard can rule the field in combat.

The best thing is that after the battle the Bard still cleans up. He scoots off to write a popular song about how he alone swung the titanic fight. Gets the girl with his good looks and charm. Convinces the innkeep to let these heroes stay and eat free.

 

[Fedifensor]

If you can live one level without Spring Attack, why not go pure Bard? Much better spells, and you can get Spring Attack with your feat at 6th. If you need to break through DR, a Rage spell or Inspire Courage plus a longsword should be sufficient to handle DR 5. Any higher DR would be folly for you anyway, even with a greatsword.

Trading two levels of bard for fighter means you're usually an entire spell level behind a pure bard, and also one song type behind as well. That's a pretty large sacrifice for getting Spring Attack early.

Also, don't forget that while a bard can ignore spell failure in light armor, shields still give you a spell failure chance. It's only 5%...but that 5% will crop up at the worst times.

 

[ForceUser]

A note of caution: despite the fact that you generally dislike archery, keep in mind that you will get tooled in melee with a d6 HD and only light armor. That is the number one reason to stay the heck away from melee and use a bow as a bard. As a rogue it's worth it because of sneak attack, but the way I see it a single-classed bard (should you choose to go that route) has no business being in melee.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

There's a lot of good stuff here!

Originally posted by satori

I would say go for the battle bard, dont wear light armor and be a pansy with a rapier,(), especiallly if your last character was a Dandy buckler combatant, grad 5 levels of fighter, a big freaking sword and shield and go to it man.

Heh. Well, it's an interesting idea, and I've thought of going the longsword route rather than rapier, but a longsword can't be finessed and I don't want yet another stat to try and raise. I've already got to worry about dex and cha, and str won't be great to start because I'd like a good int for the skill points. (Especially in 3.5, where only permananent, inherent bonuses increase skill points later.)With heavy armor, I have to deal with ASF, and a bard doesn't get enough spells to begin with, without losing more to ASF...

Originally posted by Garmorn

This brings up another point. Which class are you going to take a 1st level? I would suggest bard as the skill points are more valuable then four extra hit points. It also fits better as a bard trying to learn combat for survival reasons then a fighter turning bard.

Actually, fighter would probably fit better chronologically than bard, but since he's starting at 5th-level, I've decided to min-max his first five levels as much as possible (the bard has enough problems as it is.) That means 1st-level bard (for more skill points) and 5th-level fighter, (so he can qualify for Spring Attack.)

Originally posted by Shadeus

I have a ranger that was in the same boat as you Pendragon. I wanted him to be a melee character and was intending to go the spring attack route too. But then I actually used my bow and realized that with a rapier, even with spring attack, allows you to do one attack at 1d6+1. While a long bow with two feats gives you TWO attacks at 1d8+2 (assuming you are within PBS) with only a -1 penalty on each attack. And the number of arrows will only go up. And the bow will use your probably higher Dex score to calculate your attack rolls instead of Str.

You could go straight bard then (if you were human) and get PBS, precise shot, and rapid shot by 3rd-level. You'd have 2nd-level spells, more skills, and better songs.

You're absolutely right, Shadeus. In the last campaign I played in, one of the other players went with a Fighter/Ranger/Arcane Archer. At 13th-level we called her the Gatling Gun. She was insane. So I agree with you that arrows are very powerful, especially for a bard that wants to stay out of combat. My problem? I want to play someone who sometimes goes into melee. But sings songs. I recognize the strength of archery, but as a player, I'm not exactly excited by it.

Originally posted by Roland Delacroix

I posted a small rant before, but can't seem to find it any more. In short: the Bard is the number one damage dealer in a party and mid-high levels, and it just gets better with 3.5e.

I agree. But this comes back to an earlier post of mine. It may be that the bard produces all sorts of hp damage through bardic song. But, to use a basketball analogy, it's all assists and very little personal scoring. If you, as a player, are happy playing the Magic Johnson roll, and helping the team be better but doing little scoring yourself, that's great. But to be honest, I don't think I'm that kind of person. I want my guy to be able to contribute more directly, if possible.

And yes, some people might say, "then don't play a bard!" but that's not the point. I'm not looking to do all the scoring. But, as a bard, want to do as much scoring as a can, while also helping others out.

Originally posted by Fedifensor

If you can live one level without Spring Attack, why not go pure Bard? Much better spells, and you can get Spring Attack with your feat at 6th. If you need to break through DR, a Rage spell or Inspire Courage plus a longsword should be sufficient to handle DR 5. Any higher DR would be folly for you anyway, even with a greatsword.

Trading two levels of bard for fighter means you're usually an entire spell level behind a pure bard, and also one song type behind as well. That's a pretty large sacrifice for getting Spring Attack early.

You know, I'm starting to lean this way. That would increase his spellcasting and bardic song...and he's only 1 level away from Spring Attack. I think even I can stand to use a bow for one level.

Also, don't forget that while a bard can ignore spell failure in light armor, shields still give you a spell failure chance. It's only 5%...but that 5% will crop up at the worst times.

Good point. This will lower my bard's AC more, though. *sigh* Maybe he'll pick up a Ring of Force Shield or something later on...

Originally posted by ForceUser
A note of caution: despite the fact that you generally dislike archery, keep in mind that you will get tooled in melee with a d6 HD and only light armor. That is the number one reason to stay the heck away from melee and use a bow as a bard. As a rogue it's worth it because of sneak attack, but the way I see it a single-classed bard (should you choose to go that route) has no business being in melee.

Hence Spring Attack, ForceUser. With Spring Attack, he can be in melee and out of melee before the baddie knows he was there!

 

[Shadeus]

You know, I've always had a hard time justifying the 3 feats it takes to get Spring Attack. You might consider the "poor man's" spring attack by bumping up your Tumble skill as high as possible. Get your one attack in and then tumble out of danger. That frees up your feats for other things besides spring attack.

You'll be able to get your weapon finesse if you want. You might consider going expertise and improved disarm. That might be the kind of flash you are looking for: a disarm attempt. If you succeed, you pick up the weapon and grin evilly. If you fail, Tumble away! Tumble away!

I'm not looking to do all the scoring. But, as a bard, want to do as much scoring as a can, while also helping others out.

Heh, bards tend to score a lot...just not on the battlefield.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You know, I've always had a hard time justifying the 3 feats it takes to get Spring Attack. You might consider the "poor man's" spring attack by bumping up your Tumble skill as high as possible. Get your one attack in and then tumble out of danger. That frees up your feats for other things besides spring attack.

Well, he will have a high Tumble score. But I don't think it's really any replacement for Spring Attack. Consider:

Round 1: Bard tumbles up to giant. Attack!
Round 1: Giant looks down at bard. Attack! Attack! Attack! Attack!
Round 2: Attack! Bard limps away from giant.

-or-

Round 1: Bard springs over to giant. Attack! Bard springs away.
Round 1: Giant looks around. "Where gnat that stung me?" Giant looks over at Fighter. "Ooh! There gnat!" Attack! Attack! Attack! Attack!

You'll be able to get your weapon finesse if you want. You might consider going expertise and improved disarm. That might be the kind of flash you are looking for: a disarm attempt. If you succeed, you pick up the weapon and grin evilly. If you fail, Tumble away! Tumble away!

Yes, I looked long and hard at disarm. I may take it at higher levels. I like it, but it still leaves me next to the fighter/giant/dragon for one round longer than I'd like!

 

[Gellion]

Gets the girl with his good looks and charm.

I would start ranting again, but i am too tired right now.

 

[Gellion]

Heh, bards tend to score a lot...just not on the battlefield. [/B]

AHHHHH NOT ALL BARDS ARE PROMISCUIS!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry

 

[Camarath]

Have you considered Trip and Disarm attacks with a whip (or whip dagger)? That can be a fun way to help with combat especially if your foes are already engaged.

I have not played a Bard myself but in one campaign my character (a Monk) and a whip wielding Bard would team up in combat. We were often more effective than the other melee characters. I would draw the fire and press the attack and the bard would support me with buffs, healing, trip and disarm attempts, as well as normal attacks.

I don't know if you want to team up with another character like that. But that is one way the bard can contribute effectively to melee combat and not suffer so much for his lower AC and HP