D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Melee Rogue Build (now with extra feats!)

[StreamOfTheSky]

I also need to call it a night, so I'll just say... Blade Bravo is "bad" for the build you're going for (or the one i thought you were, maybe I'm wrong) because 2d6 SA over ten levels is atrociously slower progression than rogue. You also fall behind badly on skill points. It's a fun class, I want to try it myself someday. But it's better for a mostly warrior type with only a little rogue, rather than someone building their melee power on the back of sneak attacking.

You could still do Blade Bravo with Rogue and Swashbuckler if you want, though. Again, 3 levels in Swash, 10 Blade Bravo, remaining in Rogue is a good basic outline of how to build it. Such a build will have much lower Staggering Strike DCs (the feat's still worth taking, though!) and may never get Rogue special abilities, let alone Savvy Rogue, among other things. So it will be completely different than the original idea.

 

[Viandante]

You are right, it's going in another direction.
BUT I'll take it for sure if we reach epic levels (which is possible).
Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 19 / Blade Bravo 10 is a great build, less effective than others but hey, D&D isn't all about optimizations!

Also, if we don't reach epic levels, I may do it in another campaign. Seems like a funny prc!

 

[Viandante]

Quick update:
I am now the only melee. The assassin chose to change and be a ranger...that fights with a bow.
So we now have a sorcerer, a druid, an archer and me...which sucks.
Also, the DM told me I still need the Dodge feat as Swashbuckler's dodge bonus is something different for him.

So I'll get only three levels of Swashbuckler.


Warning!

I wrote this part and I'm not going to delete it as every information in it is true.
I just didn't see until the end that I wasn't only losing 2D6, but 2D6 every attack (up to 12D6 damage for a full attack made with two weapons and all the related feats).
Also, even if I lose only 32 skill points taking Blade Bravo levels, I forgot about the whole cross-class skills problem.
I'm not only losing 32 skill points, I lose more as I'll have to put half-points in non-class skills.

If you're interested to those builds by the way, go on!

By the way, I was thinking about taking Blade Bravo earlier than 24th level.

I did some math at level 25th (taking epic levels in play):

A) Rogue 1 / Swash 3 / Rogue 11 / Blade Bravo 10

BAB 20 / 15 / 10 / 5
SA +6D6 +2D6 Melee Sneak Attack
Fort save +10
Ref save +15
Will save +8
Skill points 172 + (Int * 29)
HD 22D8 + 3D10

B) Rogue 1 / Swash 3 / Rogue 19 / Blade Bravo 2

BAB 18 / 13 / 18 / 3
SA +10D6
Fort save +10
Ref save +13
Will save +8
Skill points 204 + (Int * 29)
HD 22D8 + 3D10


With build A I get another attack (thanks to the +2BAB), better reflex save and all of Savvy Rogue's (I can take Opportunist at level 13 and Crippling Strike at level 15) bonus, but I lose 2D6 of sneak attack damage and 32 skill points.
Thanks to Blade Bravo I gain Mobile Fighting (+1 Dodge AC if I move 5feet before attacking), Size Advantage (+2 Dodge AC every size category difference) and ofc Lethal Riposte.

Health dices are the same, as Pathfinder's rogue get to roll D8s as Blade Bravo.

So, now that I'm the only melee pc, which route should I take?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You're not the "only" melee PC. The Druid's animal companion can tank moderately well. The druid himself, once he gets wildshape, can be a better Fighter than a Fighter if he wants to be. Your group is actually pretty well balanced, the only gaping hole is skill monkey (ranger sort of covers it, but just lacks so many of the rogue's skills it almost doesn't count). Which to me means even more so...you should stick with mostly rogue, instead of Blade Bravo.

I'm confused...are you starting at level 25 or expecting the game to reach that far (IME, games tend to not go to the levels the DM initially thinks they will, and even if they do, you spend VERY little time actually at that level)? That makes a big difference in just how unoptimized going into Blade Bravo will be.

So, option B is obviously going to be the more efficient build. And you don't even need to lose out on an attack. All that matters is reaching BAB +16 by level 20. If you take the 2 Blade bravo levels pre-epic, then those plus the swashbuckler levels is +5 BAB. 15 levels in Rogue gives exactly +11 BAB, and bam! You hit level 20 with 4 attacks (aside from TWF attacks). Unless it messes up your feat progressions or something to delay rogue like that, if you're going to do Blade Bravo 2 you're much better off getting it in while BAB counts.

 

[Viandante]

I'm happy I found you here, as I rarely had a constructive exchange of ideas on the internet...

By the way, I don't really trust the druid to make a good pc, as he never did well at optimization. He likes flavour more, so he'll take any ridicolous feat he'll see as long as he likes it.
I'm talking about a player who once did a Bard / Wizard / Cleric / Archmage build, while he had low int and cha.

We start at level three, so I don't expect anyone to come in and fight in melee with me for now.

About the whole max level thing, my group likes to play characters for more than a campaign, so it's likely that we'll go on playing these characters for a long time.

But I don't have to decide right now. I mean, I'm still level three, and I can play my character up to level 15 before even thinking about a Blade Bravo build ^^



EDIT: I was thinking about this build up to level 15th
I put what I gain with class levels in brackets


1. Rogue (SA 1D6, Trapfinding) Feat: TWF
2. Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
3. Swashbuckler (Grace / Arcane Stunt) Feat: Dodge
4. Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike)
5. Rogue (Evasion, Feat: Weapon Training (short sword)) Feat: Quick Draw Skill Trick: Hidden Blade
6. Rogue (SA 2D6, Trap sense +1)
7. Rogue (Uncanny Dodge, Feat: Fast Stealth) Feat: Titan fighting
8. Rogue (SA 3D6)
9. Rogue (Trap sense +2, Feat: Combat Trick (Improved Initiative)) Feat: Darkstalker Skill trick: Acrobatic Backstab
10. Rogue (SA 4D6) Skill trick: Back on your feet
11. Rogue (Improved Uncanny Dodge, Feat: Combat Trick (Improved TWF)) Feat: Craven
12. Rogue (SA 5D6, Trap sense +3)
13. Rogue (Talento: Opportunist) Feat: Savvy Rogue
14. Rogue (SA 6D6)
15. Rogue (Trap sense +4) Feat: Staggering Strike


Then I'd go on with the TWF tree.
Is there something wrong with this order?

PS: Combat Trick is a rogue bonus feat that lets me get a fighter feat. Weapon Training is a rogue bonus feat that is equivalent to Weapon Focus.
This way I'll fight with two short swords with only -1 on hit checks.

 

[Viandante]

Tonight we start playing, I'll let you know how it turns out.
My DM refused the Arcane Stunt ACF, but it's ok, I think Swashbuckler is still a great choice.

Let me know what else should I get, or your own feat order!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm happy I found you here, as I rarely had a constructive exchange of ideas on the internet....

No problem, I wish I could be playing right now, so it's nice to be able to still at least work on builds.

EDIT: I was thinking about this build up to level 15th
I put what I gain with class levels in brackets


1. Rogue (SA 1D6, Trapfinding) Feat: TWF
2. Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
3. Swashbuckler (Grace / Arcane Stunt) Feat: Dodge
4. Swashbuckler (Insightful Strike)
5. Rogue (Evasion, Feat: Weapon Training (short sword)) Feat: Quick Draw Skill Trick: Hidden Blade
6. Rogue (SA 2D6, Trap sense +1)
7. Rogue (Uncanny Dodge, Feat: Fast Stealth) Feat: Titan fighting
8. Rogue (SA 3D6)
9. Rogue (Trap sense +2, Feat: Combat Trick (Improved Initiative)) Feat: Darkstalker Skill trick: Acrobatic Backstab
10. Rogue (SA 4D6) Skill trick: Back on your feet
11. Rogue (Improved Uncanny Dodge, Feat: Combat Trick (Improved TWF)) Feat: Craven
12. Rogue (SA 5D6, Trap sense +3)
13. Rogue (Talento: Opportunist) Feat: Savvy Rogue
14. Rogue (SA 6D6)
15. Rogue (Trap sense +4) Feat: Staggering Strike


Then I'd go on with the TWF tree.
Is there something wrong with this order?

PS: Combat Trick is a rogue bonus feat that lets me get a fighter feat. Weapon Training is a rogue bonus feat that is equivalent to Weapon Focus.
This way I'll fight with two short swords with only -1 on hit checks.

I think you should be grabbing Improved Two Weapon Fighting earlier than post level 15. Maybe not immediately, since the bonus to hit will be so smal at first, but certainly by level 12 I'd think. GTWF isn't terribly important, barring going past level 25, you're unlikely to hit with it much.

Weapon Focus is ok...I just think there are better things out there. I'd save that for a level where there's nothing you want more (or you do want something more, but can't obtain it yet).

Staggering Strike is a key component to the build and sheer survival, I would take it at the earliest level possible.

Improved Initiative, like Weapon Focus isn't a bad feat per say...but there's more important stuff you would want to take first. Improved Initiative is more important for archer rogues, who rely solely on loss of dex / flatfooted conditions to get sneak attack. You have flanking and feinting to help out, and Imp. Init only really helps you get SA on the first round (and surprise round, if applicable), when you're unlikely ot be able to do the full attack SA you're built for anyway.

I'm still not sure it's worth 2 feats to get +4 AC against a single opponent. But if you do want to stick with htat plan, you should be taking Titan Fighting in as quick succession to Dodge feat as possible. Dodge itself is terrible, the only reason to take it before more important feats would be for Titan Fighting. You should be getting Titan Fighting at level 5 with the listed build (side note: Why do you think Quick Draw is even important for you? Planning on doing some dagger throwing, too? Not sure it's worth it just for Hidden Blade). Alternatively...that Combat Trick class feature to get a Fighter feat? If you instead used that at level 9 to pick up Dodge, you could in the same level up also use your general feat on Titan Fighting. Just for example.

Also...take Craven as early as possible. Seriously.

What is Darkstalker? Don't know that feat.

EDIT: Ah, missed that you got ITWF at level 11 via class. All is well with the TWF tree, then.

 

[Viandante]

Darkstalker is a Lords of Madness feat that forces people with blind/tremor/scent - sense to still make a spot/listen check when you hide.
Also, it lets you flank cretures that have all-around vision.

As we are playing an evil campaign in the underdark it may be useful!

I'll comment on the other options later, as I'm really busy these days.

I'll just say I had the chance to take a random flaw, so I took another feat from the start, which is good!

PS: I got the flaw that decreases your AC by 1, can't remember the name!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Darkstalker sounds useful, then.

PS: I got the flaw that decreases your AC by 1, can't remember the name!

Vulnerable. Not my first choice for flaw, if all are available, it's one of them that actually really does suck no matter what. Shaky (since you're going melee anyway) or Inattentive (since you can just max spot/listen anyway and have Uncanny Dodge if the poo hits the fan) immediately come to mnd as less painful options. The -3 reflex save one is a decent trade-off if your reflex save is as insanely high as it should be, being a Rogue.

 

[Viandante]

Finally I have time to reply properly!
I hate all these holidays, I always have to go visit people I don't really care about just because they're family.

About the flaw: I didn't really have a choice. We can't pick flaws, we just roll a couple of times and see what happens. Then we have to choose between the two random results, or choose to not take the flaw at all.

I got Noncombatant (-2 on all melee attack rolls) and Vulnerable (-1 to AC) as random flaws, and I chose Vulnerable because I don't think that a two-weapons fighting gnome that also gets a -2 on melee rolls would work.
I thought about not taking a flaw, but the extra feat was worth it in my opinion.

I'm now playing, and we are slaves fighting for some drow city's amusement...and I assure you that the Titan Fighting feat really helped out there!

I'm currently level three (Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 2) and I got those feats:

TWF (first level feat)
Dodge (flaw)
Weapon Finesse (swashbucler's gift for all rogues)
Titan Fighting (third level feat)

I'm thinking about getting the feats in this order:

Level:
5. Craven (5th level feat), MISSING ROGUE FEAT
7. Darkstalker (7th level feat), Fast Stealth* (Rogue Feat)
9. Staggering Strike (9th level feat), Improved TWF (Combat Trick rogue feat), Acrobatic Backstab (Skill Trick)
10. Back On Your Feet (Skill Trick)
11. MISSING 11TH FEAT, MISSING ROGUE FEAT
13. Savvy Rogue (13rd level feat), Opportunist (rogue feat)
15. MISSING 15TH LEVEL FEAT, Crippling Strike (Rogue Feat)

*Fast stealth makes me move at full speed while hiding.

I don't plan on getting Darkstalker on early levels as my DM announced to us he's going to make us fight there for a long time, so I won't really need that.
Is there a feat that lets me use bigger weapons? Using small short swords just isn't great at all...
What do you suggest I should take, if not Weapon Focus and Improved Initiative?
Remember I can get fighters feat and weapon focus as rogue feats.

I was thinking about going the Minor Magic / Major Magic route, but I don't know.

Minor Magic makes me choose a 0-level wizard / sorcerer spell to cast three times per day as a spell-like ability.
Major Magic is similar: I can choose a 1st-level spell and I could cast it two times per day...and it requires Minor Magic first.
Useful, but I think it's just a waste spending two feat for a 0-level spell and a 1-level spell. Unless there's a really, really useful spell I'd want to absolutely learn.
I also already have some spells I can use (Message, Silence, Ghost Sound and Mage Hand) for being a Whisper Gnome.

I was also thinking about getting proficencies in the Bladed Gauntlet (Sword and Fist), which is small, light, uses a d6 for damage and has a critical range of 17-20x2 (if my DM doesn't take the errata that makes it go 19-20x2 into account, of course).
If he doesn't take the errata into account, I could even pursue the improved critical / telling blow route.

If he takes it into account, well, I think I could get them as well just because they are stilysh and have a good damage dice XD


Let me know what you think, even on flaws! ^^