D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Melee Rogue Build (now with extra feats!)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Finally I have time to reply properly!
I hate all these holidays, I always have to go visit people I don't really care about just because they're family.

Yeah, family sucks. Especially when you and your sig other are unemployed and relying on their kindness in order to exist... You know they don't like you for it and can see it in their eyes that they wish they had the guts to leave you to starve to death, while on your end you grow to loathe them for the power they hold over you like an executioner's axe and how you're forced to hide what you truly feel about them because the positive feedback loop of life turning out badly has left you dependent on the people you despise just to survive. But I digress...

I got Noncombatant (-2 on all melee attack rolls) and Vulnerable (-1 to AC) as random flaws, and I chose Vulnerable because I don't think that a two-weapons fighting gnome that also gets a -2 on melee rolls would work.
I thought about not taking a flaw, but the extra feat was worth it in my opinion.

You chose wisely, then.

I'm thinking about getting the feats in this order:

Level:
5. Craven (5th level feat), MISSING ROGUE FEAT
7. Darkstalker (7th level feat), Fast Stealth* (Rogue Feat)
9. Staggering Strike (9th level feat), Improved TWF (Combat Trick rogue feat), Acrobatic Backstab (Skill Trick)
10. Back On Your Feet (Skill Trick)
11. MISSING 11TH FEAT, MISSING ROGUE FEAT
13. Savvy Rogue (13rd level feat), Opportunist (rogue feat)
15. MISSING 15TH LEVEL FEAT, Crippling Strike (Rogue Feat)

*Fast stealth makes me move at full speed while hiding.

Are you taking the Daring Outlaw feat to recompense the lost sneak attack from those Swashbuckler levels?

Is there a feat that lets me use bigger weapons? Using small short swords just isn't great at all...

1.) Enlarge Person is a great spell and a cheap potion. The weapons enlarge with you.
2.) Don't invest too much into your current weapons, you'll be ditching them. Save up for Strongarm Bracers (6000 gp) from Magic Item Compendium. They let you use weapons one size larger at no attack penalty at all. So naturally, you'll want to sell off those small short swords for medium ones afterwards.
3.) Your damage is mostly coming from sneak attack. Even with 1 and 2, you're going from a d4 to a d8. That's an average of +2 damage. Really not much to get worked up about. Get Shadow Blade feat later on if you can fit it in to your build and your dex climbs extremely high (short swords are a Shadow Hand weapon, may as well make use of that). Alternatively, blow a feat on Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (C.Warrior or C.Adv, I forget) and just use dual longswords instead. Then at least with Enlarge Person and Strongarm Bracers you've got a respectable 2d6 base weapon damage.

What do you suggest I should take, if not Weapon Focus and Improved Initiative?
Remember I can get fighters feat and weapon focus as rogue feats.

Martial Study (anything SH, best to wait for Cloak of Deception), Martial Stance (anything SH, best to wait for Assassin's Stance), Shadow Blade. I need to check crystalkeep, there's some obscure feat out there to swap sneak attack dice for +2 to hit per dice. From the crystalkeep blurb, I got the impression you can use it whenever you have sneak attack conditions (enemy flanked or lost dex to AC), regardless of whether or not you actually can deal SA damage. If the DM interprets it that way, it's a nice fallback plan for SA-immune critters. Or just anytime you're having trouble hitting a high AC foe. Silencing Strike and Extra Silence always seemed like a fun combo to me, but I never had the feats to spare on them.

I was thinking about going the Minor Magic / Major Magic route, but I don't know.

Minor Magic makes me choose a 0-level wizard / sorcerer spell to cast three times per day as a spell-like ability.
Major Magic is similar: I can choose a 1st-level spell and I could cast it two times per day...and it requires Minor Magic first.
Useful, but I think it's just a waste spending two feat for a 0-level spell and a 1-level spell. Unless there's a really, really useful spell I'd want to absolutely learn.
I also already have some spells I can use (Message, Silence, Ghost Sound and Mage Hand) for being a Whisper Gnome.

Depends...are all sourcebooks open for spells? Spell Compendium has some very handy spells for a Rogue at level 1. Basically the entire divination school's section, and many others (short list of ones you might like: Critical Strike, Persistent Blade, Golem Strike*, Insightful Feint, Nerveskitter, Shock and Awe). As for cantrips...Prestidigitation is a really awesome thing to have. Acid Splash would basically be a 3/day attack against flatfooted touch AC for sneak attack damage turned into acid damage, bypassing DR. And because it's acid, no roll to overcome SR, either. If you can spare the feats, there's good spells to take, but if you have no room for it, you can get by without them.

I was also thinking about getting proficencies in the Bladed Gauntlet (Sword and Fist), which is small, light, uses a d6 for damage and has a critical range of 17-20x2 (if my DM doesn't take the errata that makes it go 19-20x2 into account, of course).
If he doesn't take the errata into account, I could even pursue the improved critical / telling blow route.

If he allows it in as 17-20, I'd be afraid of what else he'll allow in for spellcasters and other players that can break the game far more than a fighter-rogue hybrid ever could. Alternative cheesy exotic weapon: Kusari-gama from the DMG section on asian-themed weapons. Can use one in each hand, and they have the ability to strike at reach and adjacent (like the spiked chain).

*Unless in PF you can SA golems, which I've heard you can.

EDIT: The crystalkeep feat is Precise Strike from dragon mag #310, or on crystalkeep's feat index p. 88.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Oh, are you a good character? Do you fight mostly evil enemies? Sacred Strike feat from Book of Exalted Deeds lets you do d8's instead of d6's with your sneak attack damage against evil creatures. The downside is you have to be an exalted character to take it, which is the good alignment equivalent of supersizing your value meal.

EDIT: The damage also counts as "good," so it's also helpful for bypassing DR.

 

[Viandante]

Yeah, family sucks. Especially when you and your sig other are unemployed and relying on their kindness in order to exist... You know they don't like you for it and can see it in their eyes that they wish they had the guts to leave you to starve to death, while on your end you grow to loathe them for the power they hold over you like an executioner's axe and how you're forced to hide what you truly feel about them because the positive feedback loop of life turning out badly has left you dependent on the people you despise just to survive. But I digress...

Meh, I also study in a university, and I'm first one to do that in a worker's family...every now and then, they tell me why I just don't stop and start working, as I'd be saving money for a long time now...

Are you taking the Daring Outlaw feat to recompense the lost sneak attack from those Swashbuckler levels?

I was thinking about not taking Daring Outlaw, but then I thought that not only a couple D6 are no laughing matter when added to all of your attacks, but I could also use the dodge bonus. I mean, a +3 dodge bonus independent from my Titan Fighting bonus which is also stackable means I can have +4 to AC vs an enemy and +3 AC vs another one, or choose to just get +7 to AC against the biggest one...which is a good amount of dodge bonus here!

1.) Enlarge Person is a great spell and a cheap potion. The weapons enlarge with you.
2.) Don't invest too much into your current weapons, you'll be ditching them. Save up for Strongarm Bracers (6000 gp) from Magic Item Compendium. They let you use weapons one size larger at no attack penalty at all. So naturally, you'll want to sell off those small short swords for medium ones afterwards.
3.) Your damage is mostly coming from sneak attack. Even with 1 and 2, you're going from a d4 to a d8. That's an average of +2 damage. Really not much to get worked up about. Get Shadow Blade feat later on if you can fit it in to your build and your dex climbs extremely high (short swords are a Shadow Hand weapon, may as well make use of that). Alternatively, blow a feat on Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (C.Warrior or C.Adv, I forget) and just use dual longswords instead. Then at least with Enlarge Person and Strongarm Bracers you've got a respectable 2d6 base weapon damage.

Meh, I think that maybe I should just stick to small weapons. I could just get rapiers (as soon as we get out of slavery and I can buy some weapons, of course) if I'm planning to do the Blade Bravo PrC at some point, as I have to take Weapon Focus (Rapiers) anyway.
You are right about saying that my first dmage source are sneak attacks, I'm no real fighter.

Depends...are all sourcebooks open for spells? Spell Compendium has some very handy spells for a Rogue at level 1. Basically the entire divination school's section, and many others (short list of ones you might like: Critical Strike, Persistent Blade, Golem Strike*, Insightful Feint, Nerveskitter, Shock and Awe). As for cantrips...Prestidigitation is a really awesome thing to have. Acid Splash would basically be a 3/day attack against flatfooted touch AC for sneak attack damage turned into acid damage, bypassing DR. And because it's acid, no roll to overcome SR, either. If you can spare the feats, there's good spells to take, but if you have no room for it, you can get by without them.

Yes, we can use all sourcebooks. But is spending two feats a good thing?
I mean, two feats spent just so I could cast two spells (a cantrip and a level 1 spell) seems a bit too much for me...but maybe I don't see the bigger picture.

And no, my DM likes to keep golems / undeads immune to criticals and sneak attacks, so I still need special weapons / spells to overcome this.

If he allows it in as 17-20, I'd be afraid of what else he'll allow in for spellcasters and other players that can break the game far more than a fighter-rogue hybrid ever could. Alternative cheesy exotic weapon: Kusari-gama from the DMG section on asian-themed weapons. Can use one in each hand, and they have the ability to strike at reach and adjacent (like the spiked chain).

My master hates everything out of context, and he'd never allow us to use oriental weapons.
I was thinking about just getting the proficiency and telling him about the errata. While I'd really like to go all Chuck Norris with criticals / Telling Blow on all of the enemies' ass, I don't like being the source of a broken game.
Maybe I won't bring up the errata but I won't pursue the Improved Critical way.

EDIT: The crystalkeep feat is Precise Strike from dragon mag #310, or on crystalkeep's feat index p. 88.

I fear I don't have the book, and neither do any of my friends.

Oh, are you a good character? Do you fight mostly evil enemies? Sacred Strike feat from Book of Exalted Deeds lets you do d8's instead of d6's with your sneak attack damage against evil creatures. The downside is you have to be an exalted character to take it, which is the good alignment equivalent of supersizing your value meal.

EDIT: The damage also counts as "good," so it's also helpful for bypassing DR.

We are evil characters.




Another quick question:
I rolled these stats
18
16
16
14
14
12
Whisper Gnome has +2 to Dex and Con, -2 to Str and Cha.

So I put the 18 in Dex, 16 in Str, the other 16 in Int, 14 in Cha, 14 in Cos and 12 in Wis ending up with this:
14 Strenght
20 Dexterity
16 Constitution
16 Intelligence
12 Wisdom
12 Charisma

My only doubt is: should I swap Strenght for Constitution?
I mean, with Weapon Finesse I took care of hit rolls and I rely on sneak attacks for damage anyway, and a +1 on damage on every attack just isn't that great, while a +1 on fort saves and a +1hp per level seems like the best thing.


Let me know, I'm going out but I'll be back soon!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, Con is more important than +1 damage. Heck, if I thought you were relying on Feint at all for getting sneak attack, I'd say Charisma's more important than str, too. Hmm...Use Magic Device alone might make charisma more important, actually... Oh well, with racial penalty it'll end up being 12 regardless. Con's more important.

Spell-likes: If you don't need those spots to fill out your feat wish list, it's worthwhile. If you do need the slots or see a better option, Use Magic Device can mostly cover you anyway, so it's not very important.

 

[Dandu]

Buy wands. Install wand chambers.

 

[Viandante]

I'll ask my master if I can swap them, then, as we played just for one session.

I also tried to do something for my Charisma score, but I think that's the only stat arrangement one can do.

About the feats, we forgot about Combat Reflexes.
It's not a necessary feat, but with the Opportunist rogue feat, Savvy Rogue and Blade Bravo later on it may come in handy.

So, new feat table:
Level:
5. Daring Outlaw (5th level feat), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bladed Gauntlet)
7. Craven (7th level feat), Fast Stealth (Rogue Feat)
9. Staggering Strike (9th level feat), Improved TWF (Combat Trick rogue feat), Acrobatic Backstab (Skill Trick)
10. Back On Your Feet (Skill Trick)
11. Darkstalker (11th level feat), Combat Reflex (Rogue Feat)
13. Savvy Rogue (13rd level feat), Opportunist (rogue feat)
15. Weapon Focus (Rapier), Crippling Strike (Rogue Feat)


I think that taking Daring Outlaw before Craven is good, as Craven at level 5 would make me add 5 damage to every SA attack, but taking Daring Outlaw let me add 2D6 damage (7 on average).
I don't think that Combat Reflex is really needed before the Savvy rogue and Opportunist feats, so I delay it to 11th level.

Also, I know that taking proficiency in the bladed gauntlet is a poor choice optimization wise, but I like the flavour so I'll stick with it, unless very idiotic or my master tells me he won't have it in its campaign.

What do you think?

Buy wands. Install wand chambers.

Never heard of them
Now I did some researches.
Now I have an erection.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

What do you think?


........................


Now I have an erection.

I think TMI.

 

[Viandante]

Lol, TMI = Too Much Informations? XD

What about the feat progression? What would you change?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Looks pretty good, honestly.

 

[Viandante]

Wow, so I finally have a solid build here that I like...I almost can't believe it XD