3.5 Stat Blocks Kill my creativity

[Melan]

A poster named Dr. Skull used to have several 3.0 stat cards you could print out and use for generic NPCs. Although he isn't active here anymore, and the files have been removed from his site, someone may still have them. I used them all the time - those were quite handy things.

And yeah, I later switched to Castles & Crusades, which turned out to be a whole barrel of fun despite all the typoes in there. Can you go wrong with $20?

 

[Akrasia]

Ah, the "D&D is too complex" thread. Been a while, thread, nice to have you back.

The fact that threads like these regularly pop up indicate that there is indeed a problem -- at least for many DMs -- with 3e D&D.

What I don't understand are posters who try to deny that this is indeed a legitimate problem that many DMs have with the game.

Anyway, the problem of complex 3e stat blocks is, IMO, only a symptom of a deeper problem. In my last 3e campaign, I eventually found various strategies to 'work around' the need for detailed statblocks for most NPCs. The deeper problem was the system itself, with its endless modifiers and slow tactical combat system. Everytime I came up with a cool, new situation for my players, I immediately had to think about how to modify that situation in order to 'fit' into the established 3e rules (with all the appropriate modifiers, etc.). That is what made DM'ing less fun for me.

So I empathize with Ulrick's plight. I don't think it is helpful to accuse people like him/her of 'just not getting it'.

As for other systems, I think a number of good recommendations have been made:
C&C, WFRPG, Savage Worlds, etc.

Even other d20 systems are less vulnerable to these problems than 3e. I find Conan manageable, simply because magic and monsters are so rare (thus eliminating a lot of the complexity found in 3e). Blue Rose is another option.

 

[Akrasia]

...
And yeah, I later switched to Castles & Crusades, which turned out to be a whole barrel of fun despite all the typoes in there. Can you go wrong with $20?

Nope.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The fact that threads like these regularly pop up indicate that there is indeed a problem -- at least for many DMs -- with 3e D&D.

What I don't understand are posters who try to deny that this is indeed a legitimate problem that many DMs have with the game.
*SNIPPAGE*

It is because for a lot of people there isn't a problem. When you do not see a problem sometimes you cannot understand why other people do. Some of those people who do have a problem with the system start off with what amounts to a troll, Ulrick being a fairly minor and mild example, but he is catching flak because of some of the more obnoxious ones. When people feel that they are being attackled they defend, and, being monkeys, people defend harder than they were attacked. And also being monkeys they will lump the new 'attack' in with the others and respond with that much more force.

The fact that it is often the same people making their complaints over and over does not help their arguments. The fact that when the argument comes up other people then join in on both sides of the argument means that there is less thinking and more emoting taking place. *EDIT* This includes me, so I am removing a quarrelsome bit.*

*SNIPPED*

On the flip side the system that I have seen described for Blue Rose does interest me, but I do not see BR fanatics evangelizing their system. (Which may be part of the draw as opposed to C&C.) It will likely be joining my collection. I am a bad target for a hard sell, but a sucker for a soft sell.

The Auld Grump - Ooook.

*EDITED to be less quarrelsome.*

 

[I'm A Banana]

This is probably why I mostly run monsters at high levels -- when you've got a statblock there with a cool picture, you don't need to do the grunt work.

Still, I'm writing up a Monster Manual of NPC's that I'm going to submit for publication, having stats for "typical NPC's" of various races, classes, levels, and challenges. Using the MM as a template, I can focus on the higher levels without loosing the lower ones at all.

 

[Ulrick]

The reasons that I haven't gotten E-tools:
I've considered getting this program. It'd probably make my life a little easier. But when I've looked for it, I can't find it anywhere.

I understand that with a credit card I could buy it online. However, I don't want to buy more "D&D stuff" unless I will use it. I just don't know that much about it. But right now I don't have a credit card. I'm still stinging from when the company of the card I last had got bought out by another company and raised everybody's APR by 8 points. (Tip: Don't get a Fleet and/or Bank of America Card, but that's for discussion elsewhere)

The System Reference Document:
I've checked it out.
It appears that I should just downloaded the SRD instead of buying the books.
But I haven't seen anything in the SRD that would cure my stat-block woes.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay:
I like what I've heard so far about this game. I have the older edition of it and thought it was decent. But my FLGS doesn't have it in, and I can't find it elsewhere in the immediate area so I can take a look at it.


Castles and Crusades:
A friend bought the Player's Guide and I borrowed it. I am VERY impressed. So impressed that I downloaded some of the free stuff on their website... http://www.trolllord.com/candc.htm

In the adventure "The Lion in the Ropes" the stat blocks are so small.

I can't wait to finish my current campaign so I can try out CnC.


I just want to play a game and tell a cool story:
It doesn't matter what system I play. I stuck with D&D 2ed from when it came out to when 3e arrived because I was the only system I really knew. I when to 3e/3.5 because I thought "great, d20 for everything." So far, I've run two campaigns for 3e/3.5. And in each campaign the game halted frequently because of these "accounting problems" (and they ARE problems--not even WotC can get them right, just check out MM III).

There are so many rules and options available now, that's great. However, I just want to play. I care less about all those feats and skills that any character can choose and more about just playing the game.

The magic of D&D is gone. It's been replaced with accounting to keep track of all the skill ranks, feats, spells, spell-like abilities, saving throws, synergy bonuses, attacks of opportunity, attribute bonuses, etc...etc..etc....

 

[Breakdaddy]

=I am a bad target for a hard sell, but a sucker for a soft sell.

The Auld Grump - Ooook.

Based on just the posts you made in this thread alone, I would say you are a bad target for even polite conversation at this point :/

Oh yeah, the stat block thing.... I find that ETools and CMG's Well-organized PDF SRD are the two best tools in my arsenal for making quick and accurate stat blocks for just about anything I might use in my 3.5e campaign. I can usually do the mechanics portion of preparation for my games in under an hour for a 1 or 2 session game with these tools at my disposal (my sessions run short at about 4 hours per session, but I can generally cover 2 sessions per hour with etools/CMG's SRD). When I used to have to do it manually, I simply jotted down the combat-relevant statistics for the creatures/NPCs and maybe one or two feats/skills that might be their most useful along with a short list of basic equipment. I never had much interest in fully statting out creatures/NPCs unless they were important to the campaign/recurring.

 

[Akrasia]

... And inevitably someone brings up another system as the perfect answer.

Personally I would find spending $20 on Castles & Crusades a complete waste of money, I do not at all like what I have read about the system, but I do not go to C&C specific threads and tell people 'no, you should play D&D instead', though there are C&C players who do not have the same courtesy, and do go to D&D specific threads to 'spread the good word'. ...

If someone posted a C&C thread in which they complained about the lack of feats and prestige classes, I think it would be entirely appropriate for someone to suggest that they play 3e instead. Indeed, I would make that recommendation myself.

I would not interpret such a suggestion as an 'attack' on C&C (even if it -- gosh! -- appeared in a C&C thread). Rather, such a suggestion seems eminently sensible and appropriate.

More generally, if someone says that they have problem x with a certain game, it seems perfectly fine to me -- indeed, rather helpful -- to point out games that do not have problem x.

In short, I think you are seriously misinterpreting the spirit of the suggestions being made.

The louder they become the less interested I become. At this point I would not accept C&C as a gift. ...

I have encountered hords of annoying 3e 'fanboys' who cannot comprehend the notion that some people might prefer other games.

Nonetheless, I would be happy to accept a WotC book as a gift, and do not think that the fanboys' poor manners reflect on the game itself. (After all, I do not have to play with them!)

 

[Blue]

I tell you that one DM almost never stats block out, and he's a great improviser, but it is not good when it comes to spellcasters.

In the heat of the moment, when he's running a bunch of NPCs and his GMPC, his casters tend to end up with the same spell tactics as the others. Because he hasn't put the time into designing a unique threat, it ends up very similar to other casters.

This isn't all the time - he occasionally suprises us and it's a lot of fun! But 1 unique of of 10 just makes me wish he took the time for all of them, because he has the talent.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[Akrasia]

...
I just want to play a game and tell a cool story:
It doesn't matter what system I play. I stuck with D&D 2ed from when it came out to when 3e arrived because I was the only system I really knew. I when to 3e/3.5 because I thought "great, d20 for everything." So far, I've run two campaigns for 3e/3.5. And in each campaign the game halted frequently because of these "accounting problems" (and they ARE problems--not even WotC can get them right, just check out MM III).

There are so many rules and options available now, that's great. However, I just want to play. I care less about all those feats and skills that any character can choose and more about just playing the game.

The magic of D&D is gone. It's been replaced with accounting to keep track of all the skill ranks, feats, spells, spell-like abilities, saving throws, synergy bonuses, attacks of opportunity, attribute bonuses, etc...etc..etc....

I empathize completely. I too have run two 3e campaigns -- both of which were extremely successful, in the sense that they had interesting stories and the players really enjoyed them. But I just didn't have enough fun as DM.

Before I get accused of 'proselytizing' for C&C, the game is not perfect. But it has made DM'ing for me fun again.

Other games can do the same trick: Conan, Buffy/Angel, and (I think) WFRPG 2e.

There are a lot of options out there. Since the GM does 90 percent of the work, it only makes sense that he/she choose the system.

If players are so close-minded as to not be willing to try anything other than 3e -- well, those are players I would just as soon not know.