3E/Pathfinder Conversion of the Vampire Bestiary

[Deinos]

Also very interested!

3-HD base humanoids may be a bit too far from "base" 3.x, IMO.

We aren't creating a socioeconomic versimilitude-rich demographics study of how cannibals compare against fresh-out-of-chargen PCs.

If the idea of human societies in which everyone has a baseline of ferociousness bothers you, the 3x DMG states that people who live in extremely dangerous areas (farmers who have to constantly fend off monsters, etcetera) may be quite higher level than just 1.

Aren't there, like, racial paragon classes that give you humanoid HD, or am I hallucinating those? That seems a good precedent. Not that I'd call a cannibal a "paragon of human-ness," but, yeah.

I want to mention that I strongly recommend using Pathfinder and simply abandoning 3.5 altogether.

It'd be kind of nice if Eternity Publishing products could actually be used with each other in the same campaign. PF isn't for everyone.

I think you need to tread very carefully here, U_K. When you start changing the base system, you invoke the wrath of its fans.

Are there really people who are going to get cranky over groups of really weird humans where the lowest hit die count is 3?

(these) cannibals are different enough from "normal" people that they're essentially some sort of mutation/subspecies), then it might be seen as a feature and not a bug.

Yeah, I think handling them as a subrace, template, mutation, whatever, is the way to go.

 

[Alzrius]

Poignant though, because I am trying to gauge if there is enough desire to warrant the effort (its not exactly as if time has ever been on my side).

Fair enough, but I'm not sure if this forum is the right place to gauge overall interest. Something on the Paizo forums, for example, would probably get more responses from potential buyers.

The more I think about it, the more I see myself having to do the bulk of the groundwork on this anyway.

Well, you've always got me.

I'm not totally sure what the difference is, but I could look through the Pathfinder Bestiary 2 and make stats comparable I imagine.

The differences are a great number of small tweaks; virtually everything is different in some small way. The place to get started is probably the Pathfinder Conversion Guide, though it's aimed at PCs more than monsters.

That's true. but if the fans knew everything about cannibals then they wouldn't need me to make a book about em'.

True, but then if you knew everything about Pathfinder, you wouldn't need advice regarding the conversion.

*Groans* You are probably right. But it does nothing to endear me to the project.

What if the cannibals were a sub-human species like Neanderthals?

That would most likely work. There'd need to be a tiny bit of mechanical finagling - probably a new subtype just for them, with a few tweaks - but it could be made to work.

That shows how far 3E is from my mind. Yes I should have converted them to ECL then dropped them 2/3rds to CR.

The Dire Crocodile ECL 13 becomes CR 8

Given that a standard dire crocodile in Pathfinder is CR 9, that seems close enough (particularly since Pathfinder does seem to have upped the power-level slightly across the board).

Probably because that system doesn't differentiate between minions, standard monsters, elites and solos. A solo 4 is meant to be a greater threat than a minion 4.

I'm familiar with the rationale, and it probably does work best your way. Having said that, Challenge Ratings are more of a scientific art than an artistic science - it was your original breakdown that showed us that.

It'd be kind of nice if Eternity Publishing products could actually be used with each other in the same campaign. PF isn't for everyone.

With the advent of its first 4E book, I think that ship has sailed.

Slightly more seriously though, most 3.X players have moved on to Pathfinder. I'm concerned that if a Pathfinder book is made, a separate 3.X book simply isn't worth the effort it'd take to give the few 3.X holdouts their own version.

Are there really people who are going to get cranky over groups of really weird humans where the lowest hit die count is 3?

A book like this is going to be a niche product. The people who hear about, a buy, PDF products (with POD options) are the hardcore fans who go to forums and websites where such things are announced.

These same fans are the ones who know the game so well that they're familiar with its intricacies; hence, they'll spot a deviation from the normal course of the rules and, barring some sort of explanation, assume it's an error. Even with an explanation, they may not necessarily agree with a change was made if its radical enough.

Even if this isn't true for some hardcore fans, it's likely to be for the reviewers, who'll characterize the change as above, and who'll help to shape the potential buyers' opinions. If a name you trust is saying that the book makes some basic mistakes with things like Hit Dice, it can impact people's purchase intent.

So in other words...yeah.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Khisanth mate!

Is this still meant to be a forum project, then, or will it be another of your books?

If it's a forum project I'd --love-- to help.

Preferably a forum project. The only big changes needed are the stat-blocks.

If someone tackled the cannibals entry, another person the vampire monsters and a third the wendigos & wights, it probably wouldn't take too long. Then I could swop over the stat-blocks, tidy things up and release this Pathfinder version.

I could probably do it myself...but it would just take me longer and that time would eat into the release of new material.

Now, I think that would work fine. It's within "pulp logic" that 'primitive' creatures are physically tougher and hardier.

I love it when a plan comes together.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Deinos mate!

It'd be kind of nice if Eternity Publishing products could actually be used with each other in the same campaign. PF isn't for everyone.

This is where I get confused.

*Spins chair around and grabs the Pathfinder Bestiary 2 off the bookshelf, sets it down and opens it...*

Apart from the layout of the stat-block (which is superior), I don't see what is so immediately different about Pathfinder Monsters and 3.5 Monsters...?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Alzrius!

Fair enough, but I'm not sure if this forum is the right place to gauge overall interest. Something on the Paizo forums, for example, would probably get more responses from potential buyers.

As long as I am not solely responsible for the converting of the stat-blocks I am happy to go ahead with the project.

If its a good enough book then people will buy it. I'd rather go to the Paizo forums with something on sale rather than go with something 'in the pipeline'.

Well, you've always got me.

This deserves a 'hug' smilie. Curse you ENWorld and your limited smilie selection!

The differences are a great number of small tweaks; virtually everything is different in some small way. The place to get started is probably the Pathfinder Conversion Guide, though it's aimed at PCs more than monsters.

This is probably why I shouldn't be doing more than a superficial conversion of the stat-blocks.

True, but then if you knew everything about Pathfinder, you wouldn't need advice regarding the conversion.

Well a lot of you guys have stuck by me. This is my way of returning the favour. Beyond that, I'm not fussed about Pathfinder.

That would most likely work. There'd need to be a tiny bit of mechanical finagling - probably a new subtype just for them, with a few tweaks - but it could be made to work.

Thank goodness for that.

Given that a standard dire crocodile in Pathfinder is CR 9, that seems close enough (particularly since Pathfinder does seem to have upped the power-level slightly across the board).

When its laid out like that its so bland by comparison. Its just a dire crocodile compared to my DIRE CROCODILE.

When its a Solo monster it gets imparted with a greater sense of authority and importance. When its just a CR 9 (or whatever) monster then it all gets a bit "meh".

I'm familiar with the rationale, and it probably does work best your way. Having said that, Challenge Ratings are more of a scientific art than an artistic science - it was your original breakdown that showed us that.

It'll be interesting to see how it ultimately pans out.

 

[paradox42]

Apart from the layout of the stat-block (which is superior), I don't see what is so immediately different about Pathfinder Monsters and 3.5 Monsters...?

It's mostly in the skills, but there are significant differences in the way some feats work- for example, Cleave is very different (for the 3.5 version, or anyway the closest facsimile, you need to take Great Cleave), and Power Attack no longer allows you to set it yourself- it scales automatically based on BAB. A few monster abilities were changed too. Perhaps most important for this book (admittedly, I don't have it yet myself, but just based on it being a vampire bestiary), Undead are no longer immune to critical hits- and also, they automatically get their CHA bonus added to things that CON would be added to for living creatures.

In less detailed terms and other words, the changes PF made to how monsters work are mostly in the changes PF made to how rules work- and therefore, they are many and subtle, difficult or impossible to pick out at a casual glance- but quite significant in play nonetheless.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox42 mate!

It's mostly in the skills, but there are significant differences in the way some feats work- for example, Cleave is very different (for the 3.5 version, or anyway the closest facsimile, you need to take Great Cleave), and Power Attack no longer allows you to set it yourself- it scales automatically based on BAB. A few monster abilities were changed too. Perhaps most important for this book (admittedly, I don't have it yet myself, but just based on it being a vampire bestiary), Undead are no longer immune to critical hits- and also, they automatically get their CHA bonus added to things that CON would be added to for living creatures.

In less detailed terms and other words, the changes PF made to how monsters work are mostly in the changes PF made to how rules work- and therefore, they are many and subtle, difficult or impossible to pick out at a casual glance- but quite significant in play nonetheless.

The point being though that while they may play differently, they don't need to be designed differently to 3.5.

For instance (as you mentioned) Power Attack might mean one thing for Pathfinder and another for 3.5 but you don't need to design the monster differently because of it.

CHA bonus to effectively replace CON for undead is going to be useful to know though.

 

[Alzrius]

The point being though that while they may play differently, they don't need to be designed differently to 3.5.

For instance (as you mentioned) Power Attack might mean one thing for Pathfinder and another for 3.5 but you don't need to design the monster differently because of it.

CHA bonus to effectively replace CON for undead is going to be useful to know though.

That's true for some things U_K, but not all of them. Things like how often feats are gained (every odd-numbered level), class skills for monsters (now set by creature type, rather than all being class skills; also, cross-class skills are bought at 1:1, and class skills grant a permanent +3 bonus), which natural attacks are primary and which are secondary (now set by a universal type, rather than one of the former with the rest being the latter), and more are all factors.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Alzrius matey!

That's true for some things U_K, but not all of them.

That's why I have you guys to steer me right.

Things like how often feats are gained (every odd-numbered level), class skills for monsters (now set by creature type, rather than all being class skills; also, cross-class skills are bought at 1:1, and class skills grant a permanent +3 bonus),

...another idea they 'borrowed' from 4E.

which natural attacks are primary and which are secondary (now set by a universal type, rather than one of the former with the rest being the latter), and more are all factors.

Now that's interesting. Actually just looking over the Pathfinder Bestiary 2 and I see what you mean.

Attack Bonus differences all over the place.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Hmm, I'd have to say I'd prefer 3.5, because I can do that, but...