4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[Doug McCrae]

Outside of the "everyone uses powers" scope of 4E, there are tone and flavor reasons why 4E is so supers focused.

Here are some reasons why 4e is less, or no more, supers focused than previous editions:

1) Party power levels are far less divergent than they used to be. Casters no longer rule as was the case from OD&D->3e and PCs in the same party are now expected to be the same level which wasn't the case in 1e. Hugely differing power levels are common in superhero comics. For example Triplicate Girl (who, as the name suggests, could split into three) and Superboy were both members of the Legion of Super-Heroes.

2) The notion that everyone having superpowers is a distinctively superhero-y feature is incorrect. In comics, many teams have non-powered members alongside the super-types. For example Green Arrow of the JLA and Wildcat (who was just a boxer) of the JSA.

3) Magic items grant superpowers and the vast majority of D&D PCs in previous editions had those. In fact the Xmas tree has been somewhat reduced in 4e. If it is claimed that a power that comes from an item isn't super, then that would make Green Lantern and Iron Man not super also.

4) A lack of altruism was only a feature of Gygaxian era 1e D&D PCs. From the time of Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms (late 1e) onwards, the PCs were expected to be good guys. So you can't claim that heroic PCs are a distinctively 4e feature. OD&D and early 1e are the outliers here.

5) Although some superhero-esque powers are granted early in 4e - clerics that go pew pew all day long - others, such as flight, come much later than they did in previous editions. Nothing's more superhero-y than the flying, invulnerable (protection from normal missiles), fireball launching wizard that was available at 5th level prior to 4e.

6) No comic book superhero style art. Check out the Bill Willingham and Jeff Dee art in 1e adventures and B/X.

7) 3e had a class, the soulknife, based entirely on a comic book superhero - Psylocke of the X-Men. In fact it appeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook which I believe was regarded as core or near core. While aspects of 4e may happen to resemble some aspects of superhero comics, it doesn't contain any out-and-out ripoffs, unless you count the Shambling Mound, which has been around forever.

 

[Ourph]

Come and Get It is "narrative" in this way: The player decides how he wants to affect the battlefield and choses his narration for it.

If we're going by the GNS terminology here, "choosing narration" doesn't make a game element Narrativist. That's simply an aspect of interacting with the system. There are no limits on Come and Get It that restrict it's use to contributing to the overall theme of the game session. It's a tool for overcoming challenges, which makes it very much a gamist element. The lack of simulationist sensibilities does not automatically render something Narrativist. Some groups might choose to use Come and Get It in a Narrativist way, but in order to do so they have to engage in Drift from the core tenets of the system. The fact that certain gamist elements can be Drifted to serve Narrativist agendas doesn't make them intentionally Narrativist.

 

[pawsplay]

7) 3e had a class, the soulknife, based entirely on a comic book superhero - Psylocke of the X-Men. In fact it appeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook which I believe was regarded as core or near core. While aspects of 4e may happen to resemble some aspects of superhero comics, it doesn't contain any out-and-out ripoffs, unless you count the Shambling Mound, which has been around forever.

Actually, Rifts was published in 1990 and featured the psi sword, which is roughly contemporous with Psylocke's psychic knife ability.

 

[Allister]

Personally, I rather the martial PCs becomes like Superman rather than Batman.

For example, strip a 20th level fighter PC in any edition of their gear and I guarantee that the 4e fighter suffers the least when facing down opposition.

So pick your poison.

 

[Fifth Element]

Actually, Rifts was published in 1990 and featured the psi sword, which is roughly contemporous with Psylocke's psychic knife ability.

Okay?

Doug McRae did not say 3e is the only or first game to feature a class like this. Just that it does feature such a class.

 

[phloog]

Personally, I rather the martial PCs becomes like Superman rather than Batman.

For example, strip a 20th level fighter PC in any edition of their gear and I guarantee that the 4e fighter suffers the least when facing down opposition.

So pick your poison.

Absolutely. I just think that people get upset when they feel that their poison doesn't do it for someone else. And my poison selection is not set in stone, but changes with the mood/campaign I'm in. I could get into playing some superheroic fighter too...I just do it in a different campaign.

 

[mmadsen]

Personally, I rather the martial PCs becomes like Superman rather than Batman.

For example, strip a 20th level fighter PC in any edition of their gear and I guarantee that the 4e fighter suffers the least when facing down opposition.

It looks like you're taking the analogy in a very different direction. I don't think anyone's arguing that fighters should be dependent on a utility belt, but rather that they shouldn't fly and shoot heat-rays from their eyes.

OK, that's not so great an analogy either. After all, it's not like anyone's promoting superman's suite of superpowers for high-level fighters.

I think the conflict rests on two main issues. First, some people want a more simulationist system, where the player's choices approximate the character's choices -- and some see this as a non-issue. Second, some people want a high-level fighter's abilities to resemble Conan's -- not supernatural, just badass -- while others enjoy over-the-top action.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It looks like you're taking the analogy in a very different direction. I don't think anyone's arguing that fighters should be dependent on a utility belt, but rather that they shouldn't fly and shoot heat-rays from their eyes.

OK, that's not so great an analogy either. After all, it's not like anyone's promoting superman's suite of superpowers for high-level fighters.

I think the conflict rests on two main issues. First, some people want a more simulationist system, where the player's choices approximate the character's choices -- and some see this as a non-issue. Second, some people want a high-level fighter's abilities to resemble Conan's -- not supernatural, just badass -- while others enjoy over-the-top action.

What of the high level Fighter abilities don't look badass?

 

[Gort]

In any case, I think it's quite clear that Conan's in the heroic tier, as are the baddies from his stories.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I'd be very leery about designing powers that can only be explained by mundane means as the ingame opposition will make a mockery of this....

Hell, even 3E suffers from this and people regularly ignore it. (For example, how many people realize you can't sneak attack creatures more than one size larger than themselves i most cases?)

What no rule does this. Houserules maybe, but RAW disagrees. Legs have sneak attack point areas.