4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)

[Fifth Element]

What no rule does this. Houserules maybe, but RAW disagrees. Legs have sneak attack point areas.

Not sure about that. The last paragraph of the Sneak Attack description says "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."

So, no hard-and-fast rule about what creature have vitals that are out of reach (I'd say a Large creature's vitals are generally still within reach of a Medium creature), but no, legs do not have "sneak attack point areas." Unless the creature has vitals in its legs.

 

[phloog]

Not sure about that. The last paragraph of the Sneak Attack description says "A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."

So, no hard-and-fast rule about what creature have vitals that are out of reach (I'd say a Large creature's vitals are generally still within reach of a Medium creature), but no, legs do not have "sneak attack point areas." Unless the creature has vitals in its legs.

This is a tough one for me...does the femoral artery (if present in the creature under consideration) count as 'vitals'?...you get cut well enough there and you die quick. I think if you can reach an artery (DM's discretion), you can sneak attack....and if hit points are not just wounds (oh dear lord, here I go...), then a shot to the foot might do enough 'damage' to the non-blood/guts/brains aspects of hit points to count.

But sticking to the words above, I think that if your blade can reach the thigh of a humanoid, you can probably sneak attack...but maybe at a minus due to the lower number of options to strike...?

 

[Fifth Element]

This is a tough one for me...does the femoral artery (if present in the creature under consideration) count as 'vitals'?...you get cut well enough there and you die quick. I think if you can reach an artery (DM's discretion), you can sneak attack....and if hit points are not just wounds (oh dear lord, here I go...), then a shot to the foot might do enough 'damage' to the non-blood/guts/brains aspects of hit points to count.

Yeah, it's certainly not clear what they intended. I suspect it was to prevent rogues from sneak attacking a giant in its big toe, that sort of thing. I don't think one size category of difference is enough.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah, it's certainly not clear what they intended. I suspect it was to prevent rogues from sneak attacking a giant in its big toe, that sort of thing. I don't think one size category of difference is enough.

Nah. "Muscular action" closes wounds to the femoral artery.....just like it does having your stomach ripped open from the inside out.

(I am surprised that bit of nonsense didn't come up in the hit point discussion.....one of the first things I house ruled away in 3e.)


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Nah. "Muscular action" closes wounds to the femoral artery.....just like it does having your stomach ripped open from the inside out.

(I am surprised that bit of nonsense didn't come up in the hit point discussion.....one of the first things I house ruled away in 3e.)


RC

We should really add this to the hit point discussion, maybe we can squeeze another 10 pages out of it!

Spoiler

I can already see it. I bring it up first as an example to show that 3E hit point model had its flaws. Then others chime in on that, and use it to "discredit" something else you wrote. Others defend it, and we go in some circles. At some point, you or someone else points out that you are not claiming you were happy with the 3E model (I knew that, but I could pretend I didn't for the sake of the extra pages), and that it's no reason to make it worse. Maybe as part of the discussion, I or someone else could come up with a theory of how hit points only model the "outside" of your character, and the inside has another amount of hit points or something like that. Sounds like a plan!

 

[Raven Crowking]

We should really add this to the hit point discussion, maybe we can squeeze another 10 pages out of it!

20 at least!

That was, bar none, the worst 3e rule. "Muscular action".....gimmee a break!

(As an aside, maybe that's what healing surges represent.....the monsters had it in 3e, now the PCs have it in 4e......... )


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

20 at least!

That was, bar none, the worst 3e rule. "Muscular action".....gimmee a break!

(As an aside, maybe that's what healing surges represent.....the monsters had it in 3e, now the PCs have it in 4e......... )


RC

If it makes you sleep better at night, sure, why not?

 

[billd91]

Nah. "Muscular action" closes wounds to the femoral artery.....just like it does having your stomach ripped open from the inside out.

(I am surprised that bit of nonsense didn't come up in the hit point discussion.....one of the first things I house ruled away in 3e.)


RC

:shrug: I just figured that muscular action closed the hole and anybody else the creature had swallowed needed to cut their own way out. The creature was unlikely to survive the encounter anyway short of inflicting a TPK or making the PCs run, and at that point, I don't need to track its hit points or the long term effect of that gut wound. I never assumed that the muscular action healed the creature in any way.

 

[Raven Crowking]

:shrug: I just figured that muscular action closed the hole and anybody else the creature had swallowed needed to cut their own way out. The creature was unlikely to survive the encounter anyway short of inflicting a TPK or making the PCs run, and at that point, I don't need to track its hit points or the long term effect of that gut wound. I never assumed that the muscular action healed the creature in any way.

Whereas I ruled that, once you cut your way out, you can fight a defensive holding action, because the creature isn't going to last very long after that. So, if you can survive it, getting swallowed might be a good tactic.


RC

 

[Allister]

In any case, I think it's quite clear that Conan's in the heroic tier, as are the baddies from his stories.

That's where I think the problem lies. For some people, Conan represents an EPIC level fighter but contrasted with not only the magic using classes but also the opposition, at best, I'd say Conan just hits top of the Heroic tier.

(There was an interesting query on WOTC's board where people were asked to link to visual scenes that represented high level martial combat. One guy saw [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRStLYceOT8&feature=related"]Samurai Champloo [/ame]as high end EPIC for example whereas others saw the combat in [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZWLpxTfnB8"]Jubei-chan [/ame]as just middle level PARAGON.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the former is barely low end Paragon/high end Heroic while the latter is just hitting epic/high end paragon.....

re: Extremities.

If the argument that you can sneak attack a giant because of the femoral artery, then the whole point about extremities isn't needed, wouldn't you say.

It's hard to think of a creature that has limbs that you can't kill by letting them bleed out via a wound to said limb....