D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

[ruleslawyer]

The ELH was an unavoidable thing, really. 3E comes out with this new levelling philosophy that says you'll actually experience 20 character levels in the course of a 2-year game. It wouldn't have been hard to predict that 2 years later, you'll see a lot of players with 20th level characters who want to keep playing, but have no crunch to work with.

Absolutely spot-on, IMO.

I'd like to see the designers reach back into the semi-hallowed past and consider looking at the Masters/Immortals D&D rules for inspiration on going beyond 30th. If there are four "roles" posited for the game, you could have four "advanced classes" each based around those roles, accessible only to 30th-level characters, that had immortality/godhood as the goal. The book presenting such rules could offer the DM options for adjudicating the role of the gods (just immortal-level PC-type beings? Incredibly powerful NPC/monster-types? Ephemeral sets of concepts far beyond and/or separate from PC immortals?) and could offer suggestions for PC "interaction" with deities (depending on what tack was taken for the nature of gods in the campaign). Perhaps there could be rules for advancing as a non-Immortal track being (a wizard who can shake the thrones of the gods themselves, even though he is but a mortal!), or offer different "types" of immortality/divinity (demonic transformation, dragon ascension, etc.).

In any case, I hope they don't go with "business as usual with bigger numbers" for any system developed to advance PCs beyond 30th level. It didn't work with the ELH, and I doubt it would work easily with any set of mechanics they could come up with in 4e that were just about "turning up the dial."

 

[Jer]

I'd like to see the designers reach back into the semi-hallowed past and consider looking at the Masters/Immortals D&D rules for inspiration on going beyond 30th.

You know, I think I see a lot of Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters set influence in a lot of places in these 4e information bits. If someone on the design team had a positive impression of the "epic quest" rules in the Masters set, we might just get an "Epic Level Handbook" like that this time around.

(The rules set for the 3e Deities and Demigods is almost there - you can almost do this sort of thing with those rules. But not quite.)

 

[DaveMage]

Level cap would be weird.

 

[Gentlegamer]

You know, I think I see a lot of Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters set influence in a lot of places in these 4e information bits.

I'm hoping there are "dials" you can turn in the rules for sliding scales of complexity in the core game, allowing a level of rules detail that the group desires, somewhat like the old Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters sets introduced not just additional experience levels to advance to but additional rules that could be applied to any experience level if desired (weapon mastery, skills, stronghold, mass combat, etc.).

 

[ruleslawyer]

The only problem I see with that particular means of dialing up/down complexity (and BTW, I agree entirely with you that the "dial" should exist!), is that it really needs to be built into the game from the ground up to work properly. My B/E/C/M/I PCs were much, much more effective at taking on certain adventures with the mastery abilities in the Companion/Masters sets than they were without them.

On a tangent: Anyone feel like converting the B/E/C/M/I adventures to 4e? I've decided that these are going to be my Adventure Path...

 

[Plane Sailing]

In 1e, 9th level was more or less the end of the game, so it made more sense.

Where did you get this idea from?

Wizard and Cleric spell charts went all the way up to 20 (and had done since OD&D supplement 1, Greyhawk, which introduced 7/8/9th level wizard spells).

Playing 1e I had many characters in the teens and one in the 20s.

There were even published adventures which required characters of over 9th level.

I've sometimes seen people assert this '9th level was more or less the end of the game' idea, but I've never seen it in practice - ever!

Cheers

 

[hong]

The only time I ever saw 10th+ level characters in 1/2E was when we generated them that way from the start (for a G1-2-3 dungeoncrawl fest). The highest I ever got via organic advancement was 9th level.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

I'm hoping that in terms of mechanics/crunch, it will map roughly:

3e > 4e
4-7 1-10
8-11 11-20
12-14 21-30

In terms of campaign impact though, level 21-30 should be doing Epic stuff, just like level 12-14 PCs were doing in 1e - travelling to the Demonweb & killing Lolth, that kind of thing.

Well if she only has 122 hp in her home plane...

 

[pemerton]

The only time I ever saw 10th+ level characters in 1/2E was when we generated them that way from the start (for a G1-2-3 dungeoncrawl fest). The highest I ever got via organic advancement was 9th level.

In the first AD&D campaign I GMed the Dwarf Fighter advanced from 1st to 15th level. The Magic-User and Cleric henchmen were both 12th, I think (as henchmen receiving only half XPs).

 

[Nifft]

The only time I ever saw 10th+ level characters in 1/2E was when we generated them that way from the start (for a G1-2-3 dungeoncrawl fest). The highest I ever got via organic advancement was 9th level.

Highest I ever got via organic advancement was 5th level.

Cheers, -- N