D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

[(contact)]

Ah, kind of like 14th level in 3E, then.

Your DM lets you befriend unicorns at 14th level? What kind of crazy powergaming are you guys into?!?!?!?

 

[(contact)]

Damn good thing I had so many qualifiers and disclaimers in my post, then!

You are as cagey as you are bold, sir. A true samurai.

 

[Dice4Hire]

WHY??? WHY DOES NOONE LISTEN TO ME??/?

Are you sure you want to go there?

 

[Delta]

I have never understood why people think that Conan is a 30th level DnD character other than the ELH says that he is IIRC. His capabilities and concerns are those of a mid-level DnD character IMO...

You know, Gygax wrote a whole article on Conan's stats in Dragon #36 (April 1980). Scan of table is attached below.

 

[IceFractal]

If by this they mean like 4-14 numerically, that's fine - I could do with some high-level battles that weren't over in the first round.

However, if they mean 4-14 in terms of what a character can do - ever, then that's disappointing. Part of D&D is something that a lot of other RPGs don't have - dramatic, scope-altering character growth. You start out worrying about rations and hiding from bandits, and eventually you reach metahuman power, opening portals to the nine hells so you can track down a Pit Fiend that's been annoying you and turn it into a paperweight.


There's plenty of games that start in low-level, realistic terms - and then stay there. And I'm not saying those are bad, but they aren't D&D. Likewise, there's games that start out already at a cosmic power scale. Also fine, but that cosmic power just doesn't taste as sweet when it's nothing more than the standard. .


But in D&D, there's nothing sweeter than coming back to the obstacles and foes that tormented you 10 levels ago, and just going right through them, not slowing down. Come back to that mountain range you lost all the pack mules on and BOOM, teleport right past it. Fly over those swamps you trudged through, and vaporize all the goblins that hounded you every night, without even breaking a sweat. Tell the high-priest "Screw it, we're going to go talk to Pelor in person."

And something like raiding the BBEG's castle should feel different at epic levels than it did at 3rd level. You don't just walk up to the "Drawbridge +20" and fight the Paragon orc guards and dodge the "30d6 Hot Oil". You jump right into the middle of the place and start wreaking some havoc while your gated celestials are tearing through the undead army outside. You confuse their forces with illusions and astral projections, and if the BBEG runs away, you divine his trail and go right after him. Because what's the point of even having level 30 if it feels just like level 1?


I'm not claiming this is even what the goal is for 4E - extending the sweet spot could be purely a numerical change. This is mainly just a response to what I've often seen - the claim that the significant change in scope and strategy at higher levels is undesirable. While that may be the case for some campaigns, it certainly isn't universal.

 

[Plane Sailing]

or is it more a plain-English meaning of epic, ie stuff that's miraculous/world-changing.

That is certainly what I'm hoping for. I was underwhelmed by the ELH as I felt it did nothing for promoting epic adventures, it was just a "turn the dial up to eleven" for PCs*

I have high hopes for 4e in this regard, because I'm basically an optimist

* spot the quote and you'll understand my feelings even more

 

[hong]

If by this they mean like 4-14 numerically, that's fine - I could do with some high-level battles that weren't over in the first round.

However, if they mean 4-14 in terms of what a character can do - ever, then that's disappointing. Part of D&D is something that a lot of other RPGs don't have - dramatic, scope-altering character growth. You start out worrying about rations and hiding from bandits, and eventually you reach metahuman power, opening portals to the nine hells so you can track down a Pit Fiend that's been annoying you and turn it into a paperweight.

But that's the thing: 4th to 14th level is ALREADY dramatic, scope-altering character growth. Think of all the stuff you can do at 14th that you can't at 4th: fly, teleport, raise dead/resurrect, wind walk, plane shift, etc. This stuff is dramatic by any reasonable measure, and it's only because 3E gives you access to it midway through a campaign that it seems mundane.

 

[Tarril Wolfeye]

I just hope they don't try to cram those 30 levels into the same 1 year span that 3E campaigns should be taking, because that would mean even faster leveling up.

 

[S'mon]

I'm hoping that in terms of mechanics/crunch, it will map roughly:

3e > 4e
4-7 1-10
8-11 11-20
12-14 21-30

In terms of campaign impact though, level 21-30 should be doing Epic stuff, just like level 12-14 PCs were doing in 1e - travelling to the Demonweb & killing Lolth, that kind of thing.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I just hope they don't try to cram those 30 levels into the same 1 year span that 3E campaigns should be taking, because that would mean even faster leveling up.

Ditto. 3e levels up way to fast, by expectations.

But you can always multiply XP awards by fractions to get the result you want, so no biggy. I always do this.