D&D 4E 4E wackiness escalation

[Doug McCrae]

Not to pooh-pooh that (wonderfully eloquent, BTW!) post, but I do tend to think that 3e levels 21-30 have far less to do with Elric, Corum, and Conan and a whole lot more to do with Miracleman or the JLA.

It's true that high level D&D characters are superheroes but I see Elric, or rather Stormbringer and the beings Elric summons (neither of which he can control), as being in the same league as the JLA. Stormbringer can kill gods, at the peak of its power. Admittedly Conan also proves himself the equal of a god in The Slithering Shadow but it's a pretty wimpy god by D&D, Moorcockian or comic book standards.

 

[ruleslawyer]

It's true that high level D&D characters are superheroes but I see Elric, or rather Stormbringer and the beings Elric summons (neither of which he can control), as being in the same league as the JLA. Stormbringer can kill gods, at the peak of its power.

Well, sure! As Balo the Jester says:

That sword of yours contains power beyond belief, yet you use it in your petty struggles like wielding a battleship to catch a sprat!

Likewise with the Hand of Kwll or the Eye of Rhynn, but all of these are artifacts. I could stat them up, give them to my 14th-level PCs, and reasonably expect the same narrative results.

Admittedly Conan also proves himself the equal of a god in The Slithering Shadow but it's a pretty wimpy god by D&D, Moorcockian or comic book standards.

Well yeah; it's a Lovecraftian monster in essence, which is pretty much what most pulp "gods" are. Though I think Conan would have fared distinctly less well against Great Cthulhu...

 

[(contact)]

I was told (second-hand by (contact) after the D&D Q&A seminar) that the new game would take 3e's power curve of levels 4-14, and fit them in to levels 1-30. Thus you'd have more granularity and fewer steep power jumps, with more playable levels.

My impression at the time was that it would take the playability fom levels 4-14 and stretch them over 1-30, but there was no mention made of power relative to the game world.

My expectation would be that Epic still means what it always has meant in D&D: fighting demons, making deals with devils that leave them ruefully shaking their evil heads at your cunning, befriending unicorns and getting them make you a picnic, single-handedly kicking an orc horde further back into the stone-age, that sort of thing.

 

[Jhaelen]

Do we say goodbye to all the 8th and 9th level spells then?

That sounds horrible to me.

Sounds great to me. However, I doubt, we'll be that lucky. They'll have to leave some improvements for 5th edition, after all

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't care what the mongoose said, to me Conan is probably a level 5-7 character.

I posted my thoughts on Conan in the "Disdain for modern fantasy" thread, but they bear repeating.

Compared to all the great fighters of myth, Conan would barely qualify as 4th level, if that. From all I have seen of Conan, his abilities are too grounded in flawed notions as "possible by a modern man" or "realistically feasible" or even "allowed by the laws of physics" to be high level. Cuchulainn's warp spasm and rock throwing skills, let alone the monster-weapon called the Gae Bolg (which he throws with his toes) all make him far more powerful. Finn MacCumhaill could obtain greart heights of wisdom by biting his thumb, has a powerful and intelligent dog by his side since before birth, and could decapitate a man by hitting him with the back of his hand. Don't get me started on the various figures of Indian myth... Heracles qualifies as low-mid paragon level with all things considered.

 

[MerricB]

See the posts by Andy Collins I've quoted in this forum.

Cheers!

 

[Stalker0]

To me, the fact that you can play ridiculous epic levels is a feature of dnd. There are few game systems that can span peasants to gods in their mechanics.

One thing I wish the DMG contains is a warning to dms. 6th level dnd is not the same as 1st level, and its not the same as 20th. I think this is what bothers a lot of people. The setting they started in at 3rd is not the same at 15th...it just can't be when you have the power of gods at your disposal. DMs, especially ones just learning the game, need to be made aware of that. If they want to keep the setting the same, they have to stop leveling at some point and provide other rewards.

The 30 levels doesn't fix the problem, it just delays it. However, that might actually work just fine for most people. Most campaigns have a time limit, people will either finish the campaign or get bored with it and do something else. So if people don't hit those epic levels by the time their games end, they will never have to deal with "ridiculous" levels.

But they should be there for those who want to play it. If that's your cup of tea, then by all means drink it.

 

[Piratecat]

My impression at the time was that it would take the playability fom levels 4-14 and stretch them over 1-30, but there was no mention made of power relative to the game world.

Damn good thing I had so many qualifiers and disclaimers in my post, then!

 

[Dark Psion]

At first I cringed when I read that. Never again will the characters be the wimpy underdogs afraid of a kobold. Never will a fighter be afraid of an angry commoner with a knife.

Does this mean a cat can no longer kill a 1st level PC?




The cats are not going to like that!

 

[hong]

My impression at the time was that it would take the playability fom levels 4-14 and stretch them over 1-30, but there was no mention made of power relative to the game world.

My expectation would be that Epic still means what it always has meant in D&D: fighting demons, making deals with devils that leave them ruefully shaking their evil heads at your cunning, befriending unicorns and getting them make you a picnic, single-handedly kicking an orc horde further back into the stone-age, that sort of thing.

Ah, kind of like 14th level in 3E, then.