D&D 5E 5E Avernus Paladin/Sorcadin

[RogueJK]

I'm currently 5th level in a Descent Into Avernus campaign with a Human Vengeance Paladin glaive-wielding Polearm Master tank.

Stats are currently STR 20 DEX 12 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 16, with PAM feat at 1st and +2 STR at 4th. Party is a ranged Cleric, Monk/Rogue, and ranged Warlock primarily slinging EB.

We're coming up on 6th level, so I'm considering one of the three following options, which may require a decision as soon at 7th.

I know Avernus typically runs through Level 12ish. So without any Avernus spoilers or the like, which would you consider to be most optimal:


A) Paladin 12
Pros:
-3rd Level Paladin Spells, including Haste from my Oath, starting at Level 9
-Fear immunity
-Improved Divine Smite for 1d8 extra radiant damage per hit
-Full ASIs (I'm planning either Sentinel or GWM at 8th and +2 CHA at 12th)
Cons:
-Limited spell slots, maxing out at 4/3/3
-Limited ranged damage options. (I'm currently really hurting for options against ranged/flying foes)


B) Paladin 6 then Sorcerer 6
Pros:
-Additional and higher level spell slots for casting and especially Smiting, eventually ending up with 4/3/3/3/1
-5x Cantrips, including ranged damage options (I'm thinking Chill Touch.)
-7 Sorcerer spells known of up to 3rd, especially stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Haste, Fly
-Sorcerer subclass abilities
-Metamagic for full 2x Attacks + Quickened Spell in 1 round
Cons:
-No 3rd level Paladin spells known
-No access to Vengeance Paladin's 7th level ability, which synergizes well with PAM and reach weapon
-Access to Haste 2 levels later than straight Paladin at Level 11
-1 fewer ASI than straight Paladin and 2 levels late; I'd do +2 CHA at Level 10
-No Fear Immunity
-No Improved Divine Smite


C) Paladin 9 then Sorcerer 3 (or more likely Pal6 > Pal6/Sor1 > Pal9/Sor1 > Pal9/Sor3)
Pros:
-3rd level Paladin spells at the same rate (or nearly) as straight Paladin, including access to Haste at Level 9 (or 10 if I dip Sorcerer 1 early)
-One additional higher level spell slot for casting/Smiting, ending up with 4/3/3/1
-4x Cantrips, including ranged damage options
-4 Sorcerer spells known of up to 2nd level, especially stuff like Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image
-Sorcerer subclass abilities
-Metamagic for full 2x Attacks + Quickened Spell in 1 round, eventually
Cons:
-1 fewer ASI than straight Paladin; I'd do +2 CHA at Level 8
-No Fear Immunity
-No Improved Divine Smite
-Metamagic doesn't come online until the very end


If you suggest B or C, which Sorcerer subclass would you recommend? I'm thinking Divine Soul or Shadow. Divine Soul is thematically appropriate, and would allow for Cleric spells, plus occasional even higher saves from Favored by the Gods. But Shadow's Darkvision is nice for a Human, and Strength of the Grave is good for a tank, especially with my already boosted saves.


I'm currently leaning towards C, but I'm far from decided. I'm also open to considering alternate options if you have a different suggestion, like Pal6/Sor1 to Pal11/Sor1, or maybe even Paladin/Bard. (Paladin/Warlock would be thematically less ideal, and a bit redundant.)

 

[Todd Roybark]

I would say option A. Largely due to enjoying the thematic aesthetic of a holy man sworn to vengeance in hell going after a fallen angel. Has AMC series written all over it.
Also the class synergies really start to gel, factor in a mount, and your range of battlefield under option A is rather significant.

Plus you can keep up with the monk/rogue using the 7th level power. How monk-ish is the MoRo in your party? Stunning Blow?

 

[RogueJK]

I like the straight Paladin most of the time, but the lack of good ranged options is what initially prompted me to consider Sorcadin. Flying and/or long-ranged enemies mean everyone but me is making effective ranged attacks. We fought one particularly frustrating fiend who just sat 120 feet up in the air and blasted me with rays of fire, while I could do nothing in return except take the Dodge action. And there are a lot of flying Fiends out there.

If I stay full Paladin, I guess I could just hope to find a Longbow and some silver arrows, since a middling attack bonus with a bow would be better than just Dodging through every combat against a flying enemy.

How monk-ish is the MoRo in your party? Stunning Blow?

Yep, they're Monk 5 so far, but said they'll likely dip 1-3 levels in Rogue at some point.

 

[Esker]

Sorcerer levels should boost your damage output, even if you factor in the loss of Improved Divine Smite. 4/3/3 vs 4/3/3/3/1 is a difference of 20d8 worth of potential smites all used after you know you hit (and when you think it will matter), which is tough to match an extra 1d8 at a time even without factoring in situational leverage.

That said, it's not clear that damage should necessarily be your top priority with this character in this party: you describe character as the tank, which I think makes sense, and so it seems worth thinking about what will best serve your lockdown / keeping fire off of your allies role.

On the one hand, being able to get Sentinel and a charisma boost is worth a lot. And the 7th level mobility feature is quite nice for you.

On the other, casters offer some nice defense/control options. Shield, Mirror Image, etc. make you more durable if you succeed in drawing fire away from allies.

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss warlock levels either, for what it's worth. Warlock offers the best ranged option (you don't want fire bolts in hell), and sticking on Grasp of Hadar would fit the tank role. Hexblade gives you Shield as well (though not absorb elements), and you can also get better access to utility cantrips than sorcerer if you go at least 3 levels and take Tome.

The non-stacking of spell slots could also work in your favor if you are going with an odd number of paladin levels, since your paladin slots will still be based on the single class round-up formula. Assuming the typical two short rests in a day, three levels of warlock would give you 4/9/2, which is 14d8 more smites than a straight paladin, and more than paladin 9 / sorcerer 3. You could even go paladin 7 / warlock 5, swapping Haste for Fly.

Not saying any of this is better than going sorcadin, necessarily (I do quite like the Shadow Sorc 1st level features for you, and metamagic is certainly fun), but I do think it is worth some consideration, depending on how highly you value ranged options and miscellaneous utility.

 

[RogueJK]

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss warlock levels either, for what it's worth. Warlock offers the best ranged option (you don't want fire bolts in hell), and sticking on Grasp of Hadar would fit the tank role.

Warlock would be thematically less appealing, considering the roleplaying aspect of trying to find a non-Fiend warlock patron to which to pledge my service while in Avernus. Plus, the party Warlock is currently hurting a little bit from a slight dearth of short rests so far. And two Warlocks is a bit redundant, especially for a relatively small party like ours.

Mechanically, I don't think giving up the Sorcerer's primary bonuses of 5x higher level slots, Metamagic to Twin/Quicken spells, extra lower level spell slots from Spell Points when needed, and wider/higher level spell selection is worth the Warlock's primary bonuses of higher average ranged damage compared to Chill Touch, 2x short rest lower level slots, and a few more utility Cantrips.


As I found pointed out in another thread, 6/6 has a few additional positives that I hadn't considered. First, is the ability to Twin certain buff spells, initially with the lower level Paladin buffs of Shield of Faith/Protection from Evil/Heroism but especially the higher level Sorcerer buffs of Haste/Fly later on. That would not only benefit me, but also the Monk, and is a more efficient use of my Concentration. Second, is that my party is lacking Counterspell, which a 6/6 Sorcadin could have, and I'd have 4th and 5th level slots with which to upcast it. It won't becomes available until 11th level overall, but it could make a decisive difference in some late campaign fights. Third, if I choose Divine Soul, I could also get access to Spirit Guardians, which is fantastic on a melee character, and be able to upcast it into 4th/5th level slots for even more radiant radial damage. Again, it comes online late in the campaign, but it's a solid chunk of passive damage for times when I'm not concentrating on Bless, Hunter's Mark, or Twinned Haste/Fly.

If I go that route, It'd look something like:
Vengeance Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 6
+2 to CHA at 10th (Pal6/Sor4)
Quickened and Twinned metamagics
4/3/3/3/1 spell slots
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Booming Blade, Light, Prestidigitation, ????? (some other utility spell, or perhaps Sacred Flame, even though most Fiends have advantage on saving throws against magic)
1st Sorcerer spells: Absorb Elements, Shield, Jump* (*swapped for Levitate at Sor3)
2nd Sorcerer spells: Mirror Image, Levitate* (swapped for Fly at Sor5), Prayer of Healing* (*swapped for Counterspell at Sor6),
3rd Sorcerer spells: Haste, Fly, Spirit Guardians, Counterspell

 

[Hedin244]

The non-stacking of spell slots could also work in your favor if you are going with an odd number of paladin levels, since your paladin slots will still be based on the single class round-up formula.

The formula says its rounded down. Please make your facts straight. My players were kinda confused by that post Thank you.

You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature.

 

[Esker]

The formula says its rounded down. Please make your facts straight. My players were kinda confused by that post Thank you.

Yes, that rule applies once you have two classes with the spellcasting feature. But the warlock doesn't have that feature, so if you are a paladin/warlock your paladin spell slots are separate and based on the single class table for paladin, which rounds up. For example, paladin 9 / warlock 3 will have the regular slots of a 5th level caster (per paladin 9), plus two 2nd level pact magic slots. On the other hand, paladin 9 / sorcerer 3 only gets 4 caster levels from paladin, since now the multiclassing rules are triggered.

 

[FrogReaver]

Have you considered Paladin 9 Fighter 3?

Archery Style
Action Surge
Battlemaster manuevers

Hunters Mark + action surge + longbow + archery style + battlemaster maneuvers solves your flyer problem IMO.
Polearm Master + Action Surge + divine smites and trip attack really dishes out some great single target Nova damage.