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D&D 5E 5E Forgotten Realms: what will it look like?

I hope to see an increased book count.

That will not mean much if;

  • The reading grade level is still rotten.
  • The word count is way down.
  • The art is mediocre.
  • Too much of the setting is given over to an extremely generic new land no one cares about.
  • The interesting places have been nuked and the generic places are even more generic.
 

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Nivenus

First Post
I'm firmly against any kind of reset except one that goes all the way back to the Gray Box. Anything else to me seems like edition chauvinism.

Seriously, why is 3e inherently the best of the bunch? It's not as if there weren't significant retcons between 1e and 2e or 2e and 3e. The entire cosmology was rewritten between 2e and 3e to an extent about equal to that between 3e and 4e.

I'm not denying that some of the changes done in 4e were bizarre or disappointing, but none of them are utterly disastrous or incapable of being retconned.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
It's not as if there weren't significant retcons between 1e and 2e or 2e and 3e. The entire cosmology was rewritten between 2e and 3e to an extent about equal to that between 3e and 4e.

The cosmology changes for FR between 2e and 3e are largely a matter of semantics. There's still Limbo, but it's called the Supreme Throne. There's still Gehenna but it's the Blood Rift. Etc. All of the various outsider races are still there, by their same names. Very little of substance changes.

Between 3e and 4e however it radically changes. Entire planes vanish and new ones appear. Entire outsider races vanish and have never been there, while new races appear, sometimes hijacking the names of previous and completely different races. The cosmological origin and backstory completely changes.
 


Sylrae

First Post
Does anyone thinks it's possible to divorce the novels from the campaign setting? I for one don't see why they can't both be FR but on different timelines. I'm of the opinion that the novels, with their requirements for big-name characters and RSEs to sell new books, have been what has destroyed the campaign setting for the folks who want to game in it.
Just set the books 20 years ahead of whatever the timeline furthest in the future is, or set it in the past, filling in more details and not changing history.

*DONT* set it too near to present campaign setting dates.
 

Sylrae

First Post
The cosmology changes for FR between 2e and 3e are largely a matter of semantics. There's still Limbo, but it's called the Supreme Throne. There's still Gehenna but it's the Blood Rift. Etc. All of the various outsider races are still there, by their same names. Very little of substance changes.

Between 3e and 4e however it radically changes. Entire planes vanish and new ones appear. Entire outsider races vanish and have never been there, while new races appear, sometimes hijacking the names of previous and completely different races. The cosmological origin and backstory completely changes.
All of this.

In 2e-3e it was pretty much just name changes; other than the fact that drow gained the ability to keep their magic on the surface (which was explained in the novels prior to 3e).

The 3e-4e change saw massive retcons. Groups who used to exist now have never existed. Same with Places. New places and groups have suddenly sprung up, and instead of being well explained as a new change (which still would have been a pain, with the sheer number of things that changed), there's alot of "its always been this way."

Also, IIRC, Wood Elves in faerun are largely descended from Moon Elves; So in 4e either Elves come from Eladrin, or thats another retcon.

And several things are just never mentioned in 4e, as though they'd never been: like Dragonkin, not even to explain why theyre suddenly absent.

Its a completely different setting with a few borrowed characters, as opposed to the same setting, but updated with some changes.
 

Nivenus

First Post
The cosmology changes for FR between 2e and 3e are largely a matter of semantics. There's still Limbo, but it's called the Supreme Throne. There's still Gehenna but it's the Blood Rift. Etc. All of the various outsider races are still there, by their same names. Very little of substance changes.

Yeah, I've done a lot of exhaustive research into the nature of the planes in FR's cosmology recently and that's simply not true. The 2e and 3e planes don't match up as neatly as you're describing.

For example, is Gehenna the Blood Rift or is it the Barrens of Doom and Despair? Both planes share characteristics of 2e's Gehenna, including inhabitants, terrain, and overall alignment. Exactly where did the Outlands go? Are they Cynosure, which is supposed to be a single hall? Where does Mechanus fit in? What about Carceri?

People, I think, are more forgiving of changes like these because they made FR more unique, not less unique, which I understand. That doesn't mean they weren't huge changes.

Between 3e and 4e however it radically changes. Entire planes vanish and new ones appear. Entire outsider races vanish and have never been there, while new races appear, sometimes hijacking the names of previous and completely different races. The cosmological origin and backstory completely changes.

This is partially true but not entirely. The planes of 3e, for example, are more less there, with a few name tweaks and relocations. The Abyss has been moved to the new Elemental Chaos (which also includes the traditional elemental planes) and the Astral Plane is now the Astral Sea. And a few of the Outer Planes have been destroyed (Heliopolis and Dweomerheart, most notably). That's about it, though. Everything else is just a renaming and in this case they are just renamings.

As far as I know, none of the outsider races have vanished - they've either just become de-emphasized or reflavored. Yugoloths are now a kind of demon (not a change I'm a huge fan of it but it's also not all that extreme). There are now two different races called archons (again, not a huge fan) but that's just confusing, not an example of the celestial race being eliminated. Eladrin now come in two varieties, which again, is confusing, but not a disaster. But again, most of everything else is the same.

As for the cosmological backstory changing, I assume you're talking about the primordials (which, BTW, were originally an invention of Greenwood's for his home campaign) and the existence of Abeir. Sure, these are retcons, but neither of these is any larger than the discarding of the Great Wheel or the Time of Troubles. Not by a long shot.

Also, IIRC, Wood Elves in faerun are largely descended from Moon Elves; So in 4e either Elves come from Eladrin, or thats another retcon.

Correct, elves originally descend from eladrin, who came over to Toril from the Plane of Faerie millennia ago.

Its a completely different setting with a few borrowed characters, as opposed to the same setting, but updated with some changes.

That's your opinion, not objective fact. My opinion (which, again, is not fact) is that WotC went overboard on its attempts to fit FR into the 4e cosmology and lore, but I also don't think any of it is irreconcilable. I'm not a big fan of all the changes (mixing up the names of races, compressing the cosmology), though I am of others (I like the Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea, as well as the elemental vs. immortal conflict).

I imagine that a 5e FR, reacting to the reaction of 4e FR, would probably involve some backpedaling. But I don't want to see all backpedaling.
 
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Nivenus

First Post
For my money a lot of the issue comes down to presentation. The 3E book in many ways set a gold standard in terms of setting books while 4E, by comparison, was shoddy. Bright, but shoddy upon examination.

I'd have to agree with that. Aside from the cover layout (which I generally quite like) I have to say that 4e in general has been a general downgrade in art and design.

And more distinctive. The FR and Eberron books for 3e felt and looked setting-specific. The 4e books, on the other hand, look like what they more or less are: supplements for the main D&D game.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
One thing always made me question the divisiveness and upset over the plane-changes between 2E, 3E, and 4E. If these are Metaphysical Planes, WHY do they have to have the exact same cosmology all the time? If as the core conceit of Planescape states "Mass belief is what shapes the planes," Why can't they go from era to era from stacked rectangles, to stacked rings, to layered spheres, to some mish-mash hodgepodge altogether? In fact, why aren't the planes and how to get to a particular one totally based on the perception of those viewing them?

The vision of one Christian's version of Heaven and Hell is different from another Christian's Heaven, Hell, and Limbo, which is in turn different from a Norse believer's Hel and Valhalla, which is different from a Greek believer's belief of Hades, etc. So why not that this week, thanks to shifting mortal belief, you get to Tiamat by going to the first layer in the Nine Layers of hell, but twenty years from now, you get to her by going to the Pit of Eternal Pain in Hell?

Mortals don't even have the same perception of the afterlife in a few generations' time span in the real world, so why would they especially in a fantasy world where the gods' emissaries show up in the creepy or brilliant flesh?
 

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