5e Immortal Rules

[Distracted DM]

PS: UK is updating / remaking his Immortals Handbook for 5e. It is coming out this year. From discussions with him I know he plans to get the numbers small (I think he is capping ability scores at 30), but still provide epic power (like spells that recreate the big bang epic). Not sure how is going to do it (or if he is still holding the line on number increases), but it should be interesting

Awesome, I'll take a look- thanks for pointing me that way. I've had players ask about going beyond tier4 when some of my games got up there, but I really didn't want to keep running for level 20 characters and start stacking blessings etc. on top of them
I can't say if I'd ever RUN an Immortals-style game, I'd need some heavy inspiration for that and I don't know what media there is that'd fit that bill, but I'm always interested in new design ideas etc.

 

[Shardstone]

Awesome, I'll take a look- thanks for pointing me that way. I've had players ask about going beyond tier4 when some of my games got up there, but I really didn't want to keep running for level 20 characters and start stacking blessings etc. on top of them
I can't say if I'd ever RUN an Immortals-style game, I'd need some heavy inspiration for that and I don't know what media there is that'd fit that bill, but I'm always interested in new design ideas etc.

A project I want to work on in the future is a Master/Immortals 5E game that uses a new class for this higher tier of play, and the old class becomes a background. That way you don't have to compound 20 levels of features with another 10-20 levels of features.

 

[Distracted DM]

A project I want to work on in the future is a Master/Immortals 5E game that uses a new class for this higher tier of play, and the old class becomes a background. That way you don't have to compound 20 levels of features with another 10-20 levels of features.

Yup, that's a good idea! But I'd still want something done re: mortal vs immortal numbers.

"I'm a new immortal with 20 mega-hp. Only mega damage can hurt me. 50 mortal damage from a single source is 1 mega damage."

I'd like to say "divide everything mortal by 10 or 50 and round down" but I don't know if that would really make actual gameplay smoother.

Maybe some sort of "if they do 30+ damage from a single magical source, make an easy immortal save vs chip damage."

 

[Myrhdraak]

How does an immortal adventure look like? I guess you are not a party anymore, or? Is it more like the old Birthright setting with each player having their domains and competing for growth and power?
Never played the immortal rules back in the days.

 

[Shardstone]

Yup, that's a good idea! But I'd still want something done re: mortal vs immortal numbers.

"I'm a new immortal with 20 mega-hp. Only mega damage can hurt me. 50 mortal damage from a single source is 1 mega damage."

I'd like to say "divide everything mortal by 10 or 50 and round down" but I don't know if that would really make actual gameplay smoother.

Maybe some sort of "if they do 30+ damage from a single magical source, make an easy immortal save vs chip damage."

Have you looked at Daggerheart? Its HP and threshold system would be perfect for this. Thinks for the inspiration, gonna draft something up!

 

[Distracted DM]

How does an immortal adventure look like? I guess you are not a party anymore, or? Is it more like the old Birthright setting with each player having their domains and competing for growth and power?
Never played the immortal rules back in the days.

Yup, great question- there were adventures for them, IM1, 2, and 3. I couldn't tell you the specifics though, if they were any good, etc. because finding out that they existed is how my interest was piqued in Immortal rules and led me here in the first place!

 

[dave2008]

How does an immortal adventure look like? I guess you are not a party anymore, or? Is it more like the old Birthright setting with each player having their domains and competing for growth and power?
Never played the immortal rules back in the days.

I have some of the BECMI Immortal adventures, but they don't really match adventure standards of today. A lot, and I mean a lot, is left up to the DM. However, I honestly don't really understand how to use published adventures very well (from any edition or any publisher).

Now, my plans for immortal adventures included different modes of play:

1. Epic Play. This like standard games with some twists. Bigger numbers, impacts, etc. I planned to achieve team play by having adversaries 1 rank higher (lesser god vs demigod) be essentially 10x more powerful. So a team of demigods would have to fight one lesser god ranked opponent. I also had plans to encourage cooperative plan with for formations (coordinate team play) and arrays (a type of epic ritual) that would allow lower rank PCs to challenge creatures one or two ranks above them.

2. God Mode. This was set up almost like a Risk, where deities and epic monsters would compete for control of world (to gain worshipers). You could affect your worshipers thought prophecies, divine blessings, possession, avatars, etc.

2b. You could give quests to adventures and then play those adventures to fulfill those quests.

3. Domain Mode. Sort of a combination of 1 & 2 which focused on immortal politics / domains instead of mortal ones.

 

[Yaarel]

I like the 5e approach to Epic, where each level gains a boon, an Epic tier feat, instead of class features. It maintains continuity with the earlier character concept, and the customizability of feat selection can heighten aspects of this concept.

The 2014 DMs Guide Epic tier needs to develop further, but the approach is sound.

At level 21, the character is by definition Immortal. There needs to be a way for the player to choose the method of immortality, maybe like choosing a background so as to allow customizing a character concept. From 4e inspiration, default immortalities include: Archfey, Darklord (Shadowfell), Archlich, Primordial (Primal Nature Being), Archmage, Luminary (Psionic Cosmic Soul), Saint (or Tsadik or Bodhisattva), Demigod, Archcelestial, Archfiend, Goo (Aberration Great Old One), and something for a cyborg Construct.

There are many ways to live forever and wield cosmic power. Players can pick a favorite.

Normally, Celestials and sometimes Fiends are referred to as "Immortals". But there are many ways to become an Immortal. For clarification, those of the Astral plane can be called "Astrals" or Archastrals, including Celestials and Fiends, as well as the other stuff like Dominions floating in the Astral Sea, and whatever the Neutral aligned Immortals should be.

One gains a Domain, somewhere in the multiverse, such as a Fey Domain, Shadow Domain, or Astral Dominion. (Maybe refer to Dominions as "Domains" as well.)


And each of these are a higher rank of Immortals:
Levels 21 thru 24, are Proficiency +7.
Levels 25 thru 28, are Proficiency +8.
Levels 29 thru 32, are Proficiency +9.
Etcetera.


Inevitably, Epic characters include bigger numbers. But the important part is what they can do. Hit points matter less than the Immortal power to reform ones avatar after it gets destroyed. At level 21, the capacity to exist via an avatar and form more than one, defines what an "Immortal" is.


Thematic powers are more important than ever. This is the "portfolio" sotospeak. A theme of Plant, can divinate thru and transport to anywhere in the multiverse where plants exist.

Boons can grant a thematic a thematic and dramatic at-will power.


For comparison for how to stat an Immortal avatar: here is part of the stablock of Lolth an Archfiend who has officially measurable powers and surprises. Note the feature, Discorperation.

(The statblock doesnt mention the Proficiency Bonus, but it should to get a clear quick-glance sense of its tier. Cha 30 is +10, Expertise is double proficiency, whence Persuasion +22 −10, then ½, would only be Proficiency +6. But it should be at least Pro +7, whence Persuasion +24 or higher.)

 

[dave2008]

I like the 5e approach to Epic, where each level gains a boon, an Epic tier feat, instead of class features. It maintains continuity with the earlier character concept, and the customizability of feat selection can heighten aspects of this concept.

The 2014 DMs Guide Epic tier needs to develop further, but the approach is sound.

At level 21, the character is by definition Immortal. There needs to be a way for the player to choose the method of immortality, maybe like choosing a background so as to allow customizing a character concept. From 4e inspiration, default immortalities include: Archfey, Darklord (Shadowfell), Archlich, Primordial (Primal Nature Being), Archmage, Luminary (Psionic Cosmic Soul), Saint (or Tsadik or Bodhisattva), Demigod, Archcelestial, Archfiend, Goo (Aberration Great Old One), and something for a cyborg Construct.

There are many ways to live forever and wield cosmic power. Players can pick a favorite.

Normally, Celestials and sometimes Fiends are referred to as "Immortals". But there are many ways to become an Immortal. For clarification, those of the Astral plane can be called "Astrals" or Archastrals, including Celestials and Fiends, as well as the other stuff like Dominions floating in the Astral Sea, and whatever the Neutral aligned Immortals should be.

One gains a Domain, somewhere in the multiverse, such as a Fey Domain, Shadow Domain, or Astral Dominion. (Maybe refer to Dominions as "Domains" as well.)


And each of these are a higher rank of Immortals:
Levels 21 thru 24, are Proficiency +7.
Levels 25 thru 28, are Proficiency +8.
Levels 29 thru 32, are Proficiency +9.
Etcetera.


Inevitably, Epic characters include bigger numbers. But the important part is what they can do. Hit points matter less than the Immortal power to reform ones avatar after it gets destroyed. At level 21, the capacity to exist via an avatar and form more than one, defines what an "Immortal" is.


Thematic powers are more important than ever. This is the "portfolio" sotospeak. A theme of Plant, can divinate thru and transport to anywhere in the multiverse where plants exist.

Boons can grant a thematic a thematic and dramatic at-will power.


For comparison for how to stat an Immortal avatar: here is part of the stablock of Lolth an Archfiend who has officially measurable powers and surprises. Note the feature, Discorperation.

(The statblock doesnt mention the Proficiency Bonus, but it should to get a clear quick-glance sense of its tier. Cha 30 is +10, Expertise is double proficiency, whence Persuasion +22 −10, the ½, would only be Proficiency +6. But it should be at least Pro +7, whence Persuasion +24.)

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While I do like 5e's approach for epic mortal PCs, I prefer something more drastic for truly Immortal (deity) level PCs

 

[Yaarel]

While I do like 5e's approach for epic mortal PCs, I prefer something more drastic for truly Immortal (deity) level PCs

I feel the Boons can do this.

I agree about the cosmic chess/risk perspective. Meanwhile the "big numbers" are for the avatar. The portfolio game happens at a more cosmic transcendent level.

The higher Epic tiers (determined by Proficiency bonus) can grant Immortals increasingly broader powers − more pervasive influence across the multiverse.

Actually, its not so different from building a Bastion or old school fortress or wizard tower. Except the magnitude is far greater.