Holy Bovine
First Post
That is a great skill challenge! I am using this in my next game. Thank you and please enjoy some XP!!
A 4e Bar Fight...how to do it?
That is a great skill challenge! I am using this in my next game. Thank you and please enjoy some XP!!
vagabundo
Adventurer
I'd go the Skill challenge route with unarmed and improvised attacks and stunts. I'd do individual skill challenges of - insert your choice - complexity for each PC.
Having clearly defined success and failures is the key, I think, anyway:
All successes: King of the hill; you've knocked out and battered everyone within reach and your rep goes around town quickly. "Did you see him in the fight last night, a bloody animal he was!" You gain a +2 to any intimidation checks with the locals. You may also have some minor Quests come your way or even gain the - positive - attention of the local thieves guild.
Mixed results: You lose 1-2 healing surges and lose a random item from your backpack and 2d6+10 gold. You held a good account of yourself.
Total Failure: You were knocked unconscious and before your companions found you much of your gear was looted. You lose 1d3 magic items and all your gold you were carrying. You get a -2 on all intimidation checks with the locals and a -2 to all combat until you have three extended rests (your confidence has taken a hit).
It could be lots of fun.
EDIT: Oh and I second Durn above, lots of terrain powers in the bar. There are some good ones in the DMG2 that could apply.
Having clearly defined success and failures is the key, I think, anyway:
All successes: King of the hill; you've knocked out and battered everyone within reach and your rep goes around town quickly. "Did you see him in the fight last night, a bloody animal he was!" You gain a +2 to any intimidation checks with the locals. You may also have some minor Quests come your way or even gain the - positive - attention of the local thieves guild.
Mixed results: You lose 1-2 healing surges and lose a random item from your backpack and 2d6+10 gold. You held a good account of yourself.
Total Failure: You were knocked unconscious and before your companions found you much of your gear was looted. You lose 1d3 magic items and all your gold you were carrying. You get a -2 on all intimidation checks with the locals and a -2 to all combat until you have three extended rests (your confidence has taken a hit).
It could be lots of fun.
EDIT: Oh and I second Durn above, lots of terrain powers in the bar. There are some good ones in the DMG2 that could apply.
ExploderWizard
Hero
The problem I see coming from using a skill challenge is that you have the DM dictating to the players how a particular conflict will be resolved. In effect, staging a "scene" that presupposes how the action happens. This represents the vast majority of what is wrong with roleplaying games these days.
Whatever happened to presenting challenges and letting the players decide how they will be faced. Once the stage is set and there is a potential conflict, taking place in a bar then there may or may not be a bar fight as a result.
Telling the PC's " OK its barfight time, you need 5 successes before three failures to avoid being knocked out." is pretty much deciding thier course of action for them.
Whenever there is a situation that the DM envisions happening and events are rigged so that the situation HAS TO HAPPEN, we are on the choo choo train even if it is a short commuter trip.
Whatever happened to presenting challenges and letting the players decide how they will be faced. Once the stage is set and there is a potential conflict, taking place in a bar then there may or may not be a bar fight as a result.
Telling the PC's " OK its barfight time, you need 5 successes before three failures to avoid being knocked out." is pretty much deciding thier course of action for them.
Whenever there is a situation that the DM envisions happening and events are rigged so that the situation HAS TO HAPPEN, we are on the choo choo train even if it is a short commuter trip.
vagabundo
Adventurer
Your framing the situation for them and laying down a mechanical structure, but they are free to do what they want. If they don't want to fight in the bar fight I don't think anyone is forcing them too. But with trouble erupting standing around is not an option.
If all they wanted to do was run away I would alter the skill challenge so they try and get out of the bar. They still might get attacked and - possibly - knocked unconscious though if they fail enough. I dont see how having these mechanics is forcing - or railroading - the players.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Having the mechanics isn't. Forcing the players to use them in a confrontation would be.
Yeah, based on the context of the OP, I assumed he wanted some ideas for what would happen if a bar fight broke out. Once the PC's decide to slug it out, using the skill challenge rules is no more railroady than using the combat rules.
Of course, in my experience, it is laughably easy to provoke PC's into a bar fight. Usually, "I have the death sentence on systems!" is more than enough to start a rumble.
Of course, in my experience, it is laughably easy to provoke PC's into a bar fight. Usually, "I have the death sentence on systems!" is more than enough to start a rumble.
vagabundo
Adventurer
You could run a skill challenge that way, I suppose. But most DM's give complete freedom to the player in how they choose skills, stunts or whatever.
Saying they need a couple of successes is as straight forward as saying that one combat dice roll does not kill that dragon. To complete the goal of killing the dragon you need multiple successes. Skill challenges - when run right - are as railroad
as combat encounters.I may allow them to avoid the whole situation at the very start with a combo of smart RP and dice rolling, but not when everything has gone pear-shaped. Unless a player came up with something so awesome that that deserved to, I would not let them one-roll-win the encounter.
EDIT: Re-reading your post I think you mean giving the players the option use the standard combat rules. A skill challenge would model this situation better than the traditional combat I think: very close fighting, morale of the bar patrons and the chaotic melee associated with riots and barsfights.
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ExploderWizard
Hero
It depends on presentation. If the option is limited to the skill challenge if the PC's decide to fight then its forced. If the PC's have the option of normal combat also (even though the consequences may be dire) then it isn't.
We want to fight them, not barfight them should be an option.
vagabundo
Adventurer
Depending on the campaign and setting and YMMV: But any barfight that I've seen there is an unspoken rule about fighting "fair" and whipping out longsword and fireballs would quickly clear the bar - and end the fight. But expect big trouble in return. Daggers's on the sly of course do happen.
Just using the skill challenge would imply that the characters know of these rules or, at least, know that standard combat would case big social/criminal problems. The OP asked for suggestions for bar fighting outside of the standard rules.
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