D&D 5E A Compromise on Hit Points

[Rhenny]

I agree with the last two posters. I think its a lot more useful to talk about classes in "# of average hits till unconscious", when talking about starting HP.

I like the tensions to be around 'a wizard should take two hits. A fighter 3-4'.

If monsters are dishing out hits at about 1d6 per round at the first level, that's 3.5 per round on average, so a wizard should be suitably frail with 7 hit points. That would be at a base level of CON 10. But if a monsters damage is going to be more than this on average, HPs should increase as well.

A fighter at 3.5 per hit should be at about 10.5 to 14 HP before con mods.

It all sort of depends on what they do with crits as well. People like extra damage on a crits because big number are exciting, but that's leads to a lot of problems. I'm not a huge fan of an orc being able to drop a wizard in one hit, however low the odds, but it should be very close...

Has anyone ever played around with crits causing temporary stat damage? Say a broken wrist or a concussions (loss of Int)? Horrible scars modifying char? Anyway, probably the wrong thread for this sort of thing... but I wonder if there's a fun mechanic that doesn't mean doubling damage dice.

For crits, in addition to max damage, I apply "Wounds". A wound grants -1 to all actions until it is healed using magic. It makes the crit more interesting, especially vs. huge opponents. For weaker opponents it doesn't really matter much. For the most part, this helps the PCs more than the monsters since PCs often have a cleric who can heal while monsters don't. We kind of like the way it works, but many people warn of the "death spiral."

 

[ren1999]

Thanks for all the comments. I agree. If we have multiple ways to roll stats, why not have multiple ways to roll for hit points at 1st level. Let each game agree upon and decide which hit point system they will use.

 

[ren1999]

Could it be that players don't feel challenged by monsters because the game designers are afraid of killing off the players too easily because their character hit points are too low? I certainly think that when dming this play test. Question, are all of you also running npc's that emerge as characters? Because that isn't a part of the play test.

 

[VinylTap]

Could it be that players don't feel challenged by monsters because the game designers are afraid of killing off the players too easily because their character hit points are too low? I certainly think that when dming this play test. Question, are all of you also running npc's that emerge as characters? Because that isn't a part of the play test.

I think its more of a play-style thing. Some people enjoy the brief frailty during the first few levels of a character's life. Its challenging, and you really have to think your moves through-- it creates a tension that's not there in the mid-late stages of the game. And the characters are so new that the investment is low, so its not so bad if he/she actually dies. Think of it like twinking in MMO's, some people just like a minimalist approach to the system, but like twinking, its obviously not for everyone.

On another level, I think its important to establish this low-powered game for the contrast of characters in mid to late levels. The bigger the power gap between early game to late/mid game, the better IMO. Players need something to compare their characters to, or its all a little meaningless-- the worse you are early, the more you'll appreciate being powerful later. +10 damage sounds much better when you remember doing only +1 damage, but its less exciting when you remember doing +5 damage to start off. And with regards to hit points, unless the threat of a '1 crit to unconsciousness' hit is real, the players won't feel the tension, and it won't be effective.

The only 2 issues I have is how long is takes to level up, early on. 10 encounters is a lot at level 1 (that being an arbitrary house-rule, but seems to be a pretty popular one-- or at least an ok average). I'd prefer to have my players level up on a per session basis until level 4, when the classes tend to finally come together. (This is from pathfinder experience, it could very well be earlier or later in Next)

The other problem I have with this "early low-power" state is it makes it really tough to create interesting low-level encounters because of the XP allotment.

 

[ren1999]

I have concerns with both low hit points and automatic hits.

Let's say that 2 wizards face off each with 6 hit points.
They are both armed with Magic Missile doing an automatic 1d4+1 damage to each other.
Burning Hands, each saves 1d20+int mod? for half 4d4 damage verses DC10+int mod.
This proves there are basic flaws in the game regarding low hit points at 1st level and automatic or automatic half damage.

I think it is o.k. to have a pool of weak NPC's and those that survive will become the main characters. That's certainly something to consider when playing 1st level games.

 

[jeffh]

I have concerns with both low hit points and automatic hits.

Let's say that 2 wizards face off each with 6 hit points.
They are both armed with Magic Missile doing an automatic 1d4+1 damage to each other.
Burning Hands, each saves 1d20+int mod? for half 4d4 damage verses DC10+int mod.
This proves there are basic flaws in the game regarding low hit points at 1st level and automatic or automatic half damage.

I think it is o.k. to have a pool of weak NPC's and those that survive will become the main characters. That's certainly something to consider when playing 1st level games.

I'm not necessarily saying it doesn't, but could you spell out the supposed "proof" and "flaws" you're getting at here? "Proof" is an extremely strong word that takes some serious backing up, and unfortunately I don't follow your reasoning here at all.

 

[VinylTap]

Not to mention the fact the game was never meant to be balanced for PVP. You can complicate it a bit by calling one of the characters an NPC, but in essence, what you're talking about is PVP.

There's a good reason most low-level mobs don't have spells, and I don't think the character creation rules were ever meant to be a fool-proof system for building NPCs.

 

[DreamChaser]

Rather than we're going to curve hit points off after a certain point (name level so to speak), I would rather see levels where you don't roll HP (maybe every 3rd level or every odd level.

So first level is fixed (Max HD + Con mod, for example)
2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. you gain a HD and roll it adding Con mod.
3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. you gain 1, 2 or 4 HP (wiz, rogue/cleric, or fighter)

This way you don't "cap" at 9th or 10th and have a suddenly flat HP curve but you still avoid 20th level characters having hundreds of hit points that create major game grind.

 

[ren1999]

How about this based on your suggestions for hit points. I've also included healing rules.

Choose a class.

Healing Rules

All classes in this campaign have been taught by the cleric how to make and maintain a maximum number of daily healing potions based on their class. The healing potions heal 1/4th the character's hit points and require a standard action within combat. With just a non-magical healing kit, a character can heal 1/4th his or her hit points after a long 8 hour rest. Only 1 long rest may be taken within 24 hours.

Fighter
Class Bonus: +1 Strength
Starting Hit Points: constitution score+12
Hit Points Per Level-Up: +1d12 or constitution modifier to hit points
Healing Potion Daily Stocks: 6
Armor: any
Weapon: any
Class Powers: Martial Feats

Rogue
Class Bonus: +1 Dexterity
Hit Points: constitution score+10
Hit Points Per Level-Up: +1d10 or constitution modifier to hit points
Healing Potion Daily Stocks: 5
Armor: leather, studded leather
Weapon: fast weapons up to 1d6 damage
Class Powers: Rogue Skills

Cleric
Class Bonus: +1 Wisdom
Starting Hit Points: constitution score+8
Hit Points Per Level-Up: +1d8 or constitution modifier to hit points
Healing Potion Daily Stocks: 4
Armor: chain-mail
Weapon: the weapon of the cleric's god up to 1d8 damage
Class Powers: Healing, Cursing and Controlling Prayers

Wizard
Class Bonus: +1 Intelligence
Starting Hit Points: constitution score+6
Hit Points Per Level-Up: +1d6 or constitution modifier to hit points
Healing Potion Daily Stocks: 3
Armor: bracers, jewelry and magic abjuration spells
Weapon: wooden staff, dagger, dart, sling
Class Powers: Burst Area Spells

Custom Theme Class
Class Bonus: +1 ability
Starting Hit Points: constitution score+9
Level-Up: +1d8 or constitution modifier to hit points
Healing Potion Daily Stocks: 4
Armor: any appropriate for the build
Weapon: any appropriate for the build
Class Powers: any feat, skill, spell or prayer appropriate for the custom theme class

Class Features

All classes start with 3 chosen 1st level powers.

 

[ren1999]

The reason I've included healing potions is that natural healing slows down the game too much. No RPG video game ever excluded magical healing.