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A idea for a change to YB. More info/new idea at end of thread
- Thread starter Vanor
- Start date
Phoenix8008
First Post
Well said, Berandor. Lotsa truth there.
And Dalamar has a valid point also, although YBA is not as heavy for RP stuff, partly due to fewer people playing and partly because it takes a LONG time to get more powerful.
And Dalamar has a valid point also, although YBA is not as heavy for RP stuff, partly due to fewer people playing and partly because it takes a LONG time to get more powerful.
Left-handed Hummingbird
First Post
I agree. Well spoken, Berandor. Food for thoughts, too.
I hope we'll be able to cook up something that everybody is happy with, though.
I hope we'll be able to cook up something that everybody is happy with, though.
Lady Diamond
First Post
Well from the looks of the poll this afternoon Vanor's idea is getting shot down anyways. He put a lot of time and effort into it but unfortunately we have people who've never run a dojo before saying "hey risk it all, have fun", and folks who are saying "this idea is too complex", when usually there are lots of folks driving more and more complexity into YB on a day to day basis.
The EXP idea sounded pretty simple to me, and I'm usually the one person around here scratchin' my head at what people are talking about, because I don't play D&D.
"Why not just play YBA?" It's simple. YBA depends on one or two people to do the "DM'ing", as y'all call it. Who's going to take over YBA if or when Wicht gets swamped with OOC things and perhaps has to pull back from it? I'd be interested in seeing who takes over YBA while he's gone for a week.
"This will make it easier for 'power-players' to rise too quickly in the ranks." Well I hate to tell y'all this, we already have a system that lets people play on and on and on without slowing down their rise to higher ranks even with losses, its called "Meowthbot". No waiting on boards responses with it, and it favors people who have lots of time to sit in chat and spew generator moves.
As Vanor's student in his dojo and also someone who's put quite a bit of time myself into the Honor path, I can comment from direct experience about what he's trying to do. He's put many hours of OOC time into it (I'd Love to see other people write posts that actually have something to chew on in them, rather than one-liner IC "messages" that people think is RP'ing). Folks leading dojos have more responsibility on their shoulders, and any master who would jump from one combat to the other for the sake of his own rank at the expense of losing his dojo (and costing his students their styles that they've worked on to get)... well I don't think I'd be a student of his for very long.
There isn't a single reference in the new rules about dojos and what happens to them if the dojo master loses his/her rank. The old rules specifically stated what occurred if that situation arose. Very few players like the "no consequence from losses" idea that all paths would have benefitted from, so now I say the heck with it, and let's come up with something that gives at least a little more incentive to the folks who Do take responsibility and run a dojo at the expense of their OOC time and often at the expense of not being able to say "the hell with it, I'm going to play and have fun for myself, and I don't give a damn about my students."
Here's where we are now, IMO.
The EXP idea sounded pretty simple to me, and I'm usually the one person around here scratchin' my head at what people are talking about, because I don't play D&D.
"Why not just play YBA?" It's simple. YBA depends on one or two people to do the "DM'ing", as y'all call it. Who's going to take over YBA if or when Wicht gets swamped with OOC things and perhaps has to pull back from it? I'd be interested in seeing who takes over YBA while he's gone for a week.
"This will make it easier for 'power-players' to rise too quickly in the ranks." Well I hate to tell y'all this, we already have a system that lets people play on and on and on without slowing down their rise to higher ranks even with losses, its called "Meowthbot". No waiting on boards responses with it, and it favors people who have lots of time to sit in chat and spew generator moves.
As Vanor's student in his dojo and also someone who's put quite a bit of time myself into the Honor path, I can comment from direct experience about what he's trying to do. He's put many hours of OOC time into it (I'd Love to see other people write posts that actually have something to chew on in them, rather than one-liner IC "messages" that people think is RP'ing). Folks leading dojos have more responsibility on their shoulders, and any master who would jump from one combat to the other for the sake of his own rank at the expense of losing his dojo (and costing his students their styles that they've worked on to get)... well I don't think I'd be a student of his for very long.
There isn't a single reference in the new rules about dojos and what happens to them if the dojo master loses his/her rank. The old rules specifically stated what occurred if that situation arose. Very few players like the "no consequence from losses" idea that all paths would have benefitted from, so now I say the heck with it, and let's come up with something that gives at least a little more incentive to the folks who Do take responsibility and run a dojo at the expense of their OOC time and often at the expense of not being able to say "the hell with it, I'm going to play and have fun for myself, and I don't give a damn about my students."
Here's where we are now, IMO.
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Zappo
Explorer
The buffer ranks should be enough to preserve a dojo. You've got to lose four times in a row to lose a dojo. Even if victory was 50-50, whenever you are Green Belt 0, you have 1/16 chance of losing the dojo after the next four fights. I call it an acceptable risk.
Then, from an IC point of view, a dojo does not magically disappear when its master has a bad luck streak and loses it. The master will return soon enough. Some of the disciple will wait for him. Some will leave and then come back. With the old rules, I lost my Gang twice (no buffer ranks), and I roleplayed through the chaos ensuing my defeat, and my return to the gang, and it was cool, and it was fun. I recall that there was for a time a concrete possibility that Bayne would become Gang Boss and I would be forced to join his gang - after Kerall had talked to him and invited him to his gang. The boss becoming the thug. I liked the idea a lot from a roleplaying perspective, even if my character would have got the shor stick; it didn't happen, though.
Again, the trouble isn't any particular aspect of the game, but the general fact that some players want total and complete control over whatever happens to their character. This simply doesn't work, it doesn't work in YB and it doesn't work in any RPG; you are not writing a novel.
Anyway, my biggest trouble by far with Vanor's proposal is the total lack of challenge in the game. I frankly don't care if someone else gets to tier 6 in a week. I'm not competing against him.
Then, from an IC point of view, a dojo does not magically disappear when its master has a bad luck streak and loses it. The master will return soon enough. Some of the disciple will wait for him. Some will leave and then come back. With the old rules, I lost my Gang twice (no buffer ranks), and I roleplayed through the chaos ensuing my defeat, and my return to the gang, and it was cool, and it was fun. I recall that there was for a time a concrete possibility that Bayne would become Gang Boss and I would be forced to join his gang - after Kerall had talked to him and invited him to his gang. The boss becoming the thug. I liked the idea a lot from a roleplaying perspective, even if my character would have got the shor stick; it didn't happen, though.
Again, the trouble isn't any particular aspect of the game, but the general fact that some players want total and complete control over whatever happens to their character. This simply doesn't work, it doesn't work in YB and it doesn't work in any RPG; you are not writing a novel.
Anyway, my biggest trouble by far with Vanor's proposal is the total lack of challenge in the game. I frankly don't care if someone else gets to tier 6 in a week. I'm not competing against him.
Berandor
lunatic
Lady Diamond said:
Hey, I'm trying.
Yes, they do have more responsibility on their shoulders.
However, in a game like YB, you only got two choices: regard this responsibility as it is - in context with the game - or detached from it.
If you see it detached, then you will say that it is vitally important to keep the dojo, because your students depend on it. Furthermore, it would only be 3 losses - and it's gone.
Your students are out on the streets. You are a shame. Other dojo masters snicker at you. You have failed.
If you see it in context, you will accept that the randomness of the game changes this responsibility a lot. Your students can switch ranks, drop to white belt, or surpass you quicker than you can think, "My modem didn't work for one week".
The other fighters fight the same game. They know how you can be cheated by the generator. They know bad luck happens. They won't hold it against you if you fight. Much to the contrary, I would consider it bad sportsmanship if they did.
If your students demanded of you to make a dojo for them so that they could learn an additional style, so that they can make some interesting role-playing while still fighting, but disallowing you to fight, as well, to partake at the same entertainment as they do.
Also, being a member of a dojo whose master doesn't fight at all might give you security that the dojo will be there until you gain enough ranks to equal or surpass your master.
But does it make you proud?
"I am a member of Vanor's dojo, the master who doesn't fight."
Some people prefer security to failing, others prefer thrill to monotony.
TBH, I could understand Vanor's point if he was at Disgraced 2. But he's got two losses before he's in immediate danger of dropping ranks and losing his dojo. I'm not saying he should challenge meowth.
He could fight yellow belts, for all that matters, or even white belts - as a sort of active recruitment.
On the other hand, Vanor really excels at storytelling and role-playing. That's fine, and he can do that all without fighting. But that doesn't generate a need to change the system.
Perhaps Vanor could make up a second character, just for some fights, without backstory or such, just to remain active?
Or he could fight unofficial fights?
And, one sidenote:
I totally agree with you regarding the complexity and the trends of YB, Lady Diamond. I am also well aware of its development, but I don't list it towards those that bring the respective parts up.
I only see changes upon changes, and while most of the last seemed to have some bearing, I do not see the need for the herein proposed one. So, in order to try and keep all the changes down in numbers, I spoke up.
Nothing personal, much to the contrary.
Berandor
Lady Diamond
First Post
*shrug* I know Berandor, I didn't take it personally except in one context, ya said "what would your students think of you."
Prompting me to speak up, I am/was one of his students. My dojo losses count against his dojo as well as mine. So I told ya what I thought of how he sees his responsibilities.
BTW it'd be great to see you playing again Berandor. Where ya been hiding? I enjoy reading what you write.
Yeah Zappo, there is One more level of disgrace for the Honor path (people complain about the Honored buffer ranks enough). As I understand the game and from what I've read, disgrace means very little to those who don't have "honor" in the first place. I asked Wicht once if the old rule of "honor earns no disgrace fighting against villains" was still in place, he said the buffer ranks were to replace that rule, if I remember correctly. The Honored path was pretty weak in YB beta, everyone commented on it, few did much to fix it. The Honored path got pitied, that was about all. If the Honor path seems to have a bit more cushion this time around, I believe it's because it suffered pretty terribly before the reset, and since people have a choice of path to take, what Is the big deal about One more buffer rank in the Honored path, three buffers versus two in the other paths?
I'm having a bit of trouble though with people who say "hey, nobody loses that much in a row and one win will put you back to honored again." I say that from experience, having experienced 7 straight losses before I got One win, let alone trying to recover from disgrace with students depending on whether I win or lose.
I know the "old schoolers" here are having trouble with there being no death associated with what Vanor proposed (the term "death lover" comes to mind for those sorts of folks.. I've had enough excitement like that in my RL, I prefer not to see it in the games I play). I say, by all means kill yourselves off if ya want, sepuku is always an option. Hell, I'll even act as your second in that case, one swipe of my katana and you won't suffer all that much from splittin' your own gut open or from slicin' your jugular vein just to end yer character's miserable life. I'd be quite happy to assist, and wouldn't gain a bloomin' thing from it.
*said a bit sarcastically* We're already suffering from a reduced player base, why not do something to discourage more new players from trying it out in the first place by killin' them off and making them face death even in an IC sense.*ok, break from sarcasm*
I'm trying hard not to speculate on a game that I'm still learning to play. I can try to relate you to my experiences, that is about the best I can do, and if someone doesn't understand because they haven't walked in my shoes... I don't take it personally. I might try to show them the path I've traveled, though.
Prompting me to speak up, I am/was one of his students.
My dojo losses count against his dojo as well as mine. So I told ya what I thought of how he sees his responsibilities.BTW it'd be great to see you playing again Berandor. Where ya been hiding? I enjoy reading what you write.
Yeah Zappo, there is One more level of disgrace for the Honor path (people complain about the Honored buffer ranks enough). As I understand the game and from what I've read, disgrace means very little to those who don't have "honor" in the first place. I asked Wicht once if the old rule of "honor earns no disgrace fighting against villains" was still in place, he said the buffer ranks were to replace that rule, if I remember correctly. The Honored path was pretty weak in YB beta, everyone commented on it, few did much to fix it. The Honored path got pitied, that was about all. If the Honor path seems to have a bit more cushion this time around, I believe it's because it suffered pretty terribly before the reset, and since people have a choice of path to take, what Is the big deal about One more buffer rank in the Honored path, three buffers versus two in the other paths?
I'm having a bit of trouble though with people who say "hey, nobody loses that much in a row and one win will put you back to honored again." I say that from experience, having experienced 7 straight losses before I got One win, let alone trying to recover from disgrace with students depending on whether I win or lose.
I know the "old schoolers" here are having trouble with there being no death associated with what Vanor proposed (the term "death lover" comes to mind for those sorts of folks.. I've had enough excitement like that in my RL, I prefer not to see it in the games I play). I say, by all means kill yourselves off if ya want, sepuku is always an option. Hell, I'll even act as your second in that case, one swipe of my katana and you won't suffer all that much from splittin' your own gut open or from slicin' your jugular vein just to end yer character's miserable life. I'd be quite happy to assist, and wouldn't gain a bloomin' thing from it.
*said a bit sarcastically* We're already suffering from a reduced player base, why not do something to discourage more new players from trying it out in the first place by killin' them off and making them face death even in an IC sense.*ok, break from sarcasm*
I'm trying hard not to speculate on a game that I'm still learning to play. I can try to relate you to my experiences, that is about the best I can do, and if someone doesn't understand because they haven't walked in my shoes... I don't take it personally. I might try to show them the path I've traveled, though.
z_mystic
First Post
I thought I wasn't going to post in this thread, I almost did earlier, but I am now.
My problem with it is, under this change, I can go back to being in the honor path, but I'd be ranked at how many wins I have currently. Let's see now...I lost honor path what 26 fights ago, against no less than Lady Diamond. At the time it sucked because I was something like a nice 1-7 there. I lost 9 in a row after getting the yellow belt, then went on to light path after a win against Soth. Enough with the story telling and time to get to the point. Do you think I would have lost 9 in a row if I was still honor? Do you think I would be 13-20 right now if I didn't lose that yellow belt? Do you think I would have fought you at the time? Would I have fought the same people after that fight with Kalanyr, or would I have even fought him? If I hadn't fought you, there wouldn't be all this talk of MeowthBot, it wouldn't be logging people's moves.
So hey, look where no losses would have gotten me. I wouldn't have posted a challenge after being beaten by Kalanyr, because I wouldn't have been at Yellow D3 at the time. MB wouldn't be logging people's moves. Talk of fishing would be more rampant perhaps. Or perhaps I am the reason for everyone fighting on there?
Wow, what the past can do to the present.
Oh, and MeowthBot favors power players who have time to sit in chat rooms eh? I'm sorry to pick on the poor guy, but perhaps you'd like to ask Darkwolf how he did in 5 matches on there. I'm sorry to say this so sarcastically, but I believe he got really far with help of it. I guess you could call it speeding up the inevitable eh?
Last little bit and then I have to go, life never throws you the perfect hand, you and all of us know that, yet you keep going on, you deal with it. But yet we make the most out of it all and deal with the lack of perfection. So maybe I'll sound a bit hypocritical here, but perhaps we should look at what is good with YB and deal with what we don't like and go on. I'm going now before I rant more and get more off of what I wanted to say...
My problem with it is, under this change, I can go back to being in the honor path, but I'd be ranked at how many wins I have currently. Let's see now...I lost honor path what 26 fights ago, against no less than Lady Diamond. At the time it sucked because I was something like a nice 1-7 there. I lost 9 in a row after getting the yellow belt, then went on to light path after a win against Soth. Enough with the story telling and time to get to the point. Do you think I would have lost 9 in a row if I was still honor? Do you think I would be 13-20 right now if I didn't lose that yellow belt? Do you think I would have fought you at the time? Would I have fought the same people after that fight with Kalanyr, or would I have even fought him? If I hadn't fought you, there wouldn't be all this talk of MeowthBot, it wouldn't be logging people's moves.
So hey, look where no losses would have gotten me. I wouldn't have posted a challenge after being beaten by Kalanyr, because I wouldn't have been at Yellow D3 at the time. MB wouldn't be logging people's moves. Talk of fishing would be more rampant perhaps. Or perhaps I am the reason for everyone fighting on there?
Wow, what the past can do to the present.
Oh, and MeowthBot favors power players who have time to sit in chat rooms eh? I'm sorry to pick on the poor guy, but perhaps you'd like to ask Darkwolf how he did in 5 matches on there. I'm sorry to say this so sarcastically, but I believe he got really far with help of it. I guess you could call it speeding up the inevitable eh?
Last little bit and then I have to go, life never throws you the perfect hand, you and all of us know that, yet you keep going on, you deal with it. But yet we make the most out of it all and deal with the lack of perfection. So maybe I'll sound a bit hypocritical here, but perhaps we should look at what is good with YB and deal with what we don't like and go on. I'm going now before I rant more and get more off of what I wanted to say...
Lady Diamond
First Post
Welp z_mystic, I'm glad you were able to get all that out of your system. As I recall, I spared your character's life when we fought last. Perhaps in retrospect I should have walked away instead.
I apologize for saying whatever the heck it was that brought this spew out of you. I don't think I deserve what you said, but hey, I've been used as an online punching bag before, by better men than you.
Now please calm down.
edited: If you wish to chat further about this I'd be happy to hear your complaints via email. My address is: diamond@creationdynamics.com.
I apologize for saying whatever the heck it was that brought this spew out of you. I don't think I deserve what you said, but hey, I've been used as an online punching bag before, by better men than you.
Now please calm down.
edited: If you wish to chat further about this I'd be happy to hear your complaints via email. My address is: diamond@creationdynamics.com.
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