JacktheRabbit
Explorer
Wow, the humans would sure be pissed if the elves started taking that feat "Eschew Material Components". 
Hejdun said:
A kingdon without magic can survive in a war against a magical one?
You have all overlooked the simplest and most devastating mundane weapon of all - fire. The elves live in the forest. Humans can burn that forest. If they are attacked or if the fire is magically put out, they can move on and use guerilla/hit-and-run tactics to burn deeper and deeper into the elven forest until its black and crispy and the elves declare their unconditional surrender lest they lose their entire homeland. The best defence is a dirty agressive offence.
Andor
First Post
No..
Generally speaking, No the humans cannot win.
Assuming the humans don't have divine magic (in which case they're fine, Divine magic in 3e is very very powerfull) and they don't have a modern nationalist power structure they'll never even get far enough to threaten the elves without some kind of magic trumping effect.
Otherwise elven divinations will give then a heads up, and the teleport driven hit and run assasinations that magically powerfull adventuring parties excell at will decimate the human chain of command. Likewise the human supply lines. The magicless armies will never even march towards the forests.
If the humans have some means to negate the elves magic they have a chance, if not they'll never even be in contention.
-Andor
Generally speaking, No the humans cannot win.
Assuming the humans don't have divine magic (in which case they're fine, Divine magic in 3e is very very powerfull) and they don't have a modern nationalist power structure they'll never even get far enough to threaten the elves without some kind of magic trumping effect.
Otherwise elven divinations will give then a heads up, and the teleport driven hit and run assasinations that magically powerfull adventuring parties excell at will decimate the human chain of command. Likewise the human supply lines. The magicless armies will never even march towards the forests.
If the humans have some means to negate the elves magic they have a chance, if not they'll never even be in contention.
-Andor
Andor
First Post
Elves vs humans
I think I should clarify the above post assumes that this is a war of aggression on the part of the magicless humans. If the humans were trying to fight a defensive war against the elves then magic is less of a factor, and it entirely possible for them to war a succesfull war of reisistance against the elves. Particularly because the elves (usually assumed to have a very low birthrate) are much more suceptible to attrition than the humans.
-Andor
I think I should clarify the above post assumes that this is a war of aggression on the part of the magicless humans. If the humans were trying to fight a defensive war against the elves then magic is less of a factor, and it entirely possible for them to war a succesfull war of reisistance against the elves. Particularly because the elves (usually assumed to have a very low birthrate) are much more suceptible to attrition than the humans.
-Andor
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
I see Magic as the DnD equivalent of Science.
Hence the reason why the "Tech Level" of DnD is pretty low. Why do you need a steam engine or a shotgun when you have a Fly or Magic Missile spell?
Using the above assumption and the rules as presented, the humans would be probably be wiped out by the elves.
There are a few examples in history where a lower tech has defeated a higher tech: Vietnam is one. However, the difference in tech level there was not as great as the one you are proposing.
(Low Tech Machine gun vs. High Tech Machine gun is not as great as a difference as Bow vs. Gun. Or Swords and Catapults vs. Magic Missiles and Fireballs.)
Now if you want an indefinite Cold War between the two races, you could have these variants:
1) Magic (Elves) vs. Tech (Humans)
2) Arcane (Elves) vs. Divine (Humans)
3) Magic (Elves) vs. Homeland Advantage + Low Tech + Large Population (Humans)
My point is thus: it is really difficult to have two cultures who want to annihilate each other and have their "power" levels be balanced.
P.S. One question I have to ask: What are the humans doing with their "Research Points"?
Meaning: while the elves expand their magical research, what are the humans doing to expand their power?
Psionics? Technology? Economics?
Hence the reason why the "Tech Level" of DnD is pretty low. Why do you need a steam engine or a shotgun when you have a Fly or Magic Missile spell?
Using the above assumption and the rules as presented, the humans would be probably be wiped out by the elves.
There are a few examples in history where a lower tech has defeated a higher tech: Vietnam is one. However, the difference in tech level there was not as great as the one you are proposing.
(Low Tech Machine gun vs. High Tech Machine gun is not as great as a difference as Bow vs. Gun. Or Swords and Catapults vs. Magic Missiles and Fireballs.)
Now if you want an indefinite Cold War between the two races, you could have these variants:
1) Magic (Elves) vs. Tech (Humans)
2) Arcane (Elves) vs. Divine (Humans)
3) Magic (Elves) vs. Homeland Advantage + Low Tech + Large Population (Humans)
My point is thus: it is really difficult to have two cultures who want to annihilate each other and have their "power" levels be balanced.
P.S. One question I have to ask: What are the humans doing with their "Research Points"?
Meaning: while the elves expand their magical research, what are the humans doing to expand their power?
Psionics? Technology? Economics?
Utrecht
First Post
No no no no..... To praraphrase the politicians - "its the economy stupid"
Again, a nations ability to win a war is directly tied to its ability to fund a war. Thus, it does not matter that the elves could deploy the largest, strongest army if they end up going bankrupt within a month - sure they won a couple of battles, but the humans would win the war......
As I said above magic is simply a resource - like hourses, like timber that a nation has the ability to harness. To do this a nation has to pay money(wages, training etc - and all of these are NOT cheap for mages). If that nation loses or has a minimal ability to fund these payments, they can not effectively harness thier power.
Further, greater technology is NOT a garuntee to win the war. For example, at the start of WWII the USA was a technologicaly behind Europe in warmaking technology (in fact 1 -2 generations behind) However we did have the economy to fund a long war.
USSR vs. Germany - Overall Germany had superior technology - but Russia was able to out-produce Germany in ALL major areas during the war - Germany tried to keep up, buts it ecomony was more limited than what the Russians could call on.
So again, a magicless society could VERY EASILY stand up against a equally strong Magical Society - it is all a matter of what resources were applied where - another example of this was 1870 France Vs a newly Unified Germany - The entire world believed that France would win this contest (including a great number of Germans) However - Germany was better able to apply thier economy towards military ends and triumphed becasue of it.
Finally, I do admit that this is colored through the glasses of Reality, but fundamentally the principles apply to a fantasy kingdoms as well as 15th centurey England
Again, a nations ability to win a war is directly tied to its ability to fund a war. Thus, it does not matter that the elves could deploy the largest, strongest army if they end up going bankrupt within a month - sure they won a couple of battles, but the humans would win the war......
As I said above magic is simply a resource - like hourses, like timber that a nation has the ability to harness. To do this a nation has to pay money(wages, training etc - and all of these are NOT cheap for mages). If that nation loses or has a minimal ability to fund these payments, they can not effectively harness thier power.
Further, greater technology is NOT a garuntee to win the war. For example, at the start of WWII the USA was a technologicaly behind Europe in warmaking technology (in fact 1 -2 generations behind) However we did have the economy to fund a long war.
USSR vs. Germany - Overall Germany had superior technology - but Russia was able to out-produce Germany in ALL major areas during the war - Germany tried to keep up, buts it ecomony was more limited than what the Russians could call on.
So again, a magicless society could VERY EASILY stand up against a equally strong Magical Society - it is all a matter of what resources were applied where - another example of this was 1870 France Vs a newly Unified Germany - The entire world believed that France would win this contest (including a great number of Germans) However - Germany was better able to apply thier economy towards military ends and triumphed becasue of it.
Finally, I do admit that this is colored through the glasses of Reality, but fundamentally the principles apply to a fantasy kingdoms as well as 15th centurey England
DM_Matt
First Post
A counter-example to the numbers theory...
Look at the Middle East.
Israel is outnumbered 100 to 1 and has a much lower birthrate than its enemies, but always come out on top due to much better technology and tactics.
Thus it might be with the elves, whose magic advantage might be about the same, birthrate disadvantage might be about the same, and tactical advantage ought to be the same (elves are smarter and wiser than humans, and they have the advantage of divination spells that simulate the tactical advantage granted by spy drones and satellite imaging of the battlefield).
Look at the Middle East.
Israel is outnumbered 100 to 1 and has a much lower birthrate than its enemies, but always come out on top due to much better technology and tactics.
Thus it might be with the elves, whose magic advantage might be about the same, birthrate disadvantage might be about the same, and tactical advantage ought to be the same (elves are smarter and wiser than humans, and they have the advantage of divination spells that simulate the tactical advantage granted by spy drones and satellite imaging of the battlefield).
Utrecht
First Post
Lost Soul,
The argument that I am putting forth is on a macro level - How much effort and cost went into training, equiping and deploying the flying Wizard - now what could the human kingdom do with those resources? Outfit 100 longbowmen? 20 Knights?......
Regarding the Isreali situation - the Israelis have always fought a defensive war - thus enhancing their numbers. Further, (again touching on my argument about econmies) when you compare the economies of Isreal to Jordan, Syria, Eqypt I think that you will find the Isrealis come out ahead in that comparison (coupled with the multi-BILLION dollars that we drop in there to supplement)
So again, the stronger economy effective comes out ahead.
The argument that I am putting forth is on a macro level - How much effort and cost went into training, equiping and deploying the flying Wizard - now what could the human kingdom do with those resources? Outfit 100 longbowmen? 20 Knights?......
Regarding the Isreali situation - the Israelis have always fought a defensive war - thus enhancing their numbers. Further, (again touching on my argument about econmies) when you compare the economies of Isreal to Jordan, Syria, Eqypt I think that you will find the Isrealis come out ahead in that comparison (coupled with the multi-BILLION dollars that we drop in there to supplement)
So again, the stronger economy effective comes out ahead.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Some New Mechanics
This would actually be a ripe picking ground for the fruits of feats and PrC's that are designed as anti-magic.
Magic in D&D is pretty integral. Forgoing it entirely is nearly suicide. Of course, the humans have some abilities -- they're not usually born to the same tree-huggin' hippie idealism of the elves, for one. They can fight dirty and not feel bad about it. They probably have a technological advantage, especially if they've eschewed magic. They can also get allies -- humans, in most D&D worlds, are numerous enough that other races don't want to peeve them off...and maybe the dwarves would jump in on the Human's side, provided there's a good reason. They could always count on orcs and goblinoids for a bit of help, too.
But there are other ways. How do you beat a flying invisible fire-ball flingin' wizard? Guard dogs trained to sniff magic? Spies that let you know when they're comin'? Giant eagles and/or owls and/or bats that don't need sight to be able to knock things around?
Though, in the end, I see one big bonus: the humans, in this conflict, would have develloped anti-magical items and classes.
A feat that gives you, maybe, SR of 5 (able to be taken multipule times)?
A PrC that gives you SR as an ability?
A specific weapon or armor that dispells magic within a certain radius?
Specific creatures bred to sniff out magic and exterminate it?
Golems, which are nigh-indestructible with magic?
A feat that allows you to dispell magic?
Guard dogs or other animals bred to detect and alert the town of magic use?
The best way to fight magic is to develop mundane things that specifically destroy it. From the description, a PrC like the Forsaker in Masters of the Wild might not be a bad idea, or you may consider some sort of anti-magical paladin (detect magic instead of detect evil?) as a base class or PrC.
And consider alternate forms of magic. Clerical magic. Psionics. Though magic-like, they're not the same as elfish wizardry, and so could be OK.
This would actually be a ripe picking ground for the fruits of feats and PrC's that are designed as anti-magic.
Magic in D&D is pretty integral. Forgoing it entirely is nearly suicide. Of course, the humans have some abilities -- they're not usually born to the same tree-huggin' hippie idealism of the elves, for one. They can fight dirty and not feel bad about it. They probably have a technological advantage, especially if they've eschewed magic. They can also get allies -- humans, in most D&D worlds, are numerous enough that other races don't want to peeve them off...and maybe the dwarves would jump in on the Human's side, provided there's a good reason. They could always count on orcs and goblinoids for a bit of help, too.
But there are other ways. How do you beat a flying invisible fire-ball flingin' wizard? Guard dogs trained to sniff magic? Spies that let you know when they're comin'? Giant eagles and/or owls and/or bats that don't need sight to be able to knock things around?
Though, in the end, I see one big bonus: the humans, in this conflict, would have develloped anti-magical items and classes.
A feat that gives you, maybe, SR of 5 (able to be taken multipule times)?
A PrC that gives you SR as an ability?
A specific weapon or armor that dispells magic within a certain radius?
Specific creatures bred to sniff out magic and exterminate it?
Golems, which are nigh-indestructible with magic?
A feat that allows you to dispell magic?
Guard dogs or other animals bred to detect and alert the town of magic use?
The best way to fight magic is to develop mundane things that specifically destroy it. From the description, a PrC like the Forsaker in Masters of the Wild might not be a bad idea, or you may consider some sort of anti-magical paladin (detect magic instead of detect evil?) as a base class or PrC.
And consider alternate forms of magic. Clerical magic. Psionics. Though magic-like, they're not the same as elfish wizardry, and so could be OK.
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