A pseudo-scientific explanation of magic

[Angel Tarragon]

Right now I can't help but think of Sliders and Tangents (Alternity supplement).

 

[Zappo]

This is a very good premise to explain magic that does stuff with physical forces, but I don't see it working for, eg, mind effects; nor does it explain stuff like why you can magically create a whole bunch of lead but just a bit of gold. I think you're going to need a lot of ad-hoc explanations for individual spells if you want to create a coherent system.

I too enjoy magic which has some sort of explanation or basic premise, but I don't necessarily like it to be grounded in physics. My favorite magic explanation by far is Mage: the Ascension. There, you have a cosmological basis of reality which is very different from what we know - and from that, both physics and magic are fairly logically explained.

 

[MonsterMash]

Damn, The Universe beat me to Zero-Point Energy. I suppose that's to be expected...

Anyway, that's neat background rationale for a magic system, JD, but I've always been interested in what comes next. Now that you have an underlying theory, the trick is to derive a set of ramifications from said theory that directly relate to the game mechanics/common spell effects. Preferably a small, easy-to-manage set.

To me I'd be interested in that part - how do you go onto magic use. Ok as a CoC type approach its a lot less common than D&D so less of the all pervasive thing.

Actually as I'm looking at it now I think it would be possible to fit Elements of Magic's approach to this - with Magic Points reflecting how a caster can channel the forces.

Outsiders are just entities from another brane. These Outsiders don't need to be limited to traditional depictions of alien horrors, either. Less tenticular, more conceptual. Sentient, polyhedral clouds that can reduce the speed of light to 45 MPH. Or demonic number systems that threaten a kingdom's currency. Perhaps exposing terrestrial creatures to energies from outside their home brane can slowly turn them into Outsiders.

Thinking CoC makes me think more rugose and alien geometries.

 

[The_Universe]

This is a very good premise to explain magic that does stuff with physical forces, but I don't see it working for, eg, mind effects; nor does it explain stuff like why you can magically create a whole bunch of lead but just a bit of gold. I think you're going to need a lot of ad-hoc explanations for individual spells if you want to create a coherent system.

Well, if one can manipulate the basic fabric of reality, what's to stop you from mucking around in someone's mind - it is, after all, just another part of that reality. If I can manipulate the space between subatomic particles, and I know how to make those particles start a fire, or a call a bolt of lightning, or help me fly (or whatever), who's to say I can't figure out how to make neurons fire in the specific pattern that makes my enemies see a dragon where there isn't one, or make them fall asleep, or see their worst fear...?

As for how to make "limits" of magic work, one must simply remember that just because a thing is possible does not mean we know how to make it happen. At the very least, we needn't assume that we know how to make it happen in the most effective way. So, while I might have figured out how to reshape reality to create lead from nothing (and lots of it) perhaps I only know how to make a little gold. It might be possible to make the same amount of gold that I did lead...but that still doesn't mean that I was aware of how to do so.

Man could fly before he understood all the laws of flight - pseudoscientific magic could and should work the same way. While the theoretical underpinnings of manned flight eventually gave us supersonic jets, we had to start with awkward propellared monoplanes....

 

[Hand of Evil]

My old gama world game it was the Van Alan Belt, it had become highly charged with 'something' that allowed magic.

 

[Umbran]

I don't have a good link that explains it (it's a fairly complicated theory)...

Hm. I don't want to go into Higgs particles here....

But, one way to explain a way to get something from nothing isn't too complicated...

Everyone has heard of the Uncertainty Principle - you cannot know the precise position and momentum of a particular object at one time. The more you know about where a thing is, the less you know about where it is going, and vice versa.

The thing is, with a little twist of math, we can see the same thing happening with different variables. Just as with position/momentum, I can pair Time and Energy in uncertainty.

Thus - the more precisely I know the time, the less precisely I know the energy. Of anything - a particle, a field, what have you.

So, let's look out at the vacuum of space, or the space between protons and neutrons, or what have you. On the whole, there's nothing there. Nothing happening. But the UP tells me that I cannot say that, for any particular moment, that the field has zero energy. That's equivalent to saying that I know both variables with high precision, and that's not allowed. So, for any given moment, that field may well have something other than zero energy. For really small moments, it can have huge amounts of energy.

In other words, you can pull energy out of nowhere and nothing, so long as it doesn't stick around for long.

 

[The_Universe]

Hm. I don't want to go into Higgs particles here....

But, one way to explain a way to get something from nothing isn't too complicated...

Everyone has heard of the Uncertainty Principle - you cannot know the precise position and momentum of a particular object at one time. The more you know about where a thing is, the less you know about where it is going, and vice versa.

The thing is, with a little twist of math, we can see the same thing happening with different variables. Just as with position/momentum, I can pair Time and Energy in uncertainty.

Thus - the more precisely I know the time, the less precisely I know the energy. Of anything - a particle, a field, what have you.

So, let's look out at the vacuum of space, or the space between protons and neutrons, or what have you. On the whole, there's nothing there. Nothing happening. But the UP tells me that I cannot say that, for any particular moment, that the field has zero energy. That's equivalent to saying that I know both variables with high precision, and that's not allowed. So, for any given moment, that field may well have something other than zero energy. For really small moments, it can have huge amounts of energy.

In other words, you can pull energy out of nowhere and nothing, so long as it doesn't stick around for long.

Thanks for the explanation. I have approximately 0 science background (unless one counts Political Science, and I certainly don't, so why should you?), so I'm pretty much pulling this out of my ass from a limited read of a couple of magazine articles and its mention in a couple of pieces of science fiction. And I have a buddy who's a physicist...but it's nice to hear someone with a bit more authority explain it.

 

[RangerWickett]

I have started working this in slightly with somatic components for spells. The reason you need to cast a spell with the whole verbal-somatic-material kick is because people don't understand the actual underpinnings of magic. It just so happens that the subtle flex of a pinky tendon in 7th-dimensional spacetime is just the nudge 7th-dimensional energy needs to enter our world, and that the color of bat guano is an innate trait of objects in the 10th dimension which when manifested in our world transforms energy into heat, while the psychological act of making your mouth say a chant actually triggers a chemical reaction in the 9th dimension that briefly links your mental concept of aiming with a wormhole, so that the energy from the 7th dimension creates a fireball just where you want it, and that glowing bead is the mouth of the wormhole flying to where you want it to go.

You just think you're waving your hands, rubbing sulfur because it burns, and chanting arcane words, but in truth you're just fortunate to have stumbled upon the way to access dark energy.

 

[Desdichado]

You might want to consider tying "Superstring" theory and "cosmic resonance" ideas in with real world occult ideas of Feng Shue and Ley Lines. Imagine that the verbal components of spells are trying to find effective harmonies with the frequency at which superstrings vibrate, the somatic components are essentially pulling at the "web" of superstrings that cris-cross reality. It doesn't leave a lot of room for material components of "spellcasting," but the ability to percieve and manipulate the "strings" posited by "String Theory" would essentially grant the person the ability to manipulate the very fabric of reality...and it even works well with the D&D idea of the planes. Sounds like magic to me...

Brilliant! I'm very glad I asked this here!

 

[Desdichado]

Anyway, that's neat background rationale for a magic system, JD, but I've always been interested in what comes next. Now that you have an underlying theory, the trick is to derive a set of ramifications from said theory that directly relate to the game mechanics/common spell effects. Preferably a small, easy-to-manage set.

Exactly, that's the real trick, isn't it? And as you point out, some of the staples of D&D style magic are still just as mysterious, if not even moreso, under this pseudo-scientific rationale. I'm not actually at all sure that D&D style magic is compatible with it. Although it might me -- if you can manipulate matter at a quantum particle level, healing (for example) shouldn't be impossible -- just hypercomplex. Only a supercomputer could hope to plot it out.

Or maybe all mages in this setting are autists. I dunno. Obviously I have some wrinkles. Then again, I don't need to justify D&D magic necessarily - I've been playing this setting with Cthulhu style magic, and it's worked great so far. But I do want to work out some of the obvious kinks in the idea to make it more or less fly. Or at least glide for a few hundred yards.