A quick look at Intimidate: the D&D wunderskill

[greywulf]

I've posted this up in the Role-playing section of my blog , but thought it worthwhile dropping it in here for input from you guys (and gals) too. Hope it gives food for thought

Want to find secret doors, avoid traps and be lead straight to the treasure? How about doing all that without even shedding a drop of blood in combat, and without casting a single spell. Then Intimidate is the skill for you!

Intimidation is a fine skill that can be used to coerce your sworn enemy into providing the same aid and assistance as a friend. Whilst under your influence he will spill the details of the tribal treasure horde, offer you his weapon and lead you through danger. As per the SRD:

You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

It won't turn him into actually /being/ your friend, and will hate you more after 10-60 minutes, but by then you have all of the advantage.

It's a Standard Action too, so you can approach the Orc guard and Intimidate him in the first round then attack on the second. He's at -2 to attack if you have demoralized him, and the battle is won before it's begun. Alternatively, you could just ask him to open the door and let you through. He is your "friend", after all

The key is maxing your Intimidate skill to the highest possible level. The ideal path is a Rogue with high Charisma, as this is the only class with both Intimidate and Bluff as core skills. Get max ranks in both, and by second level a Human CHA 16 Rogue with the feats Persuasive and Skill Focus(Intimidate) will have Intimidate at 5 (rank) + 3 (CHA) + 2 (Bluff skill synergy) + 2 (Persuasive) + 3 (Skill focus) = +15.

Note: You could also include the Willing Deformity feat from /Heroes of Horror/ to add a further +3 to Intimidate, but not until 3rd level. A human Fighter could get all the feats at 1st level, but Bluff isn't a class skill, so the net gain is only +1 by second level - hardly worth the effort. The alignment has to be Evil too, which isn't appropriate for all campaigns.

+15 Intimidate means your average Orc (1 HD, WIS 7) rolls d20-1 for the DC. Even on a roll of 20 for a total of 19, you only need to roll higher than a 4 to browbeat the poor critter.

Goblins (1 HD, WIS 9) fare even less well. They roll d20+1, but because of their Small size our Medium-sized CHA 16 Rogue-2 rolls d20+19. Even if they roll a 20 (total 21) you only need roll higher than a 1 and they are yours.

Looking at something tougher like an Ogre (4 HD, WIS 10) and things are a little trickier, though the odds are still stacked in your favour. They roll d20+4, and the example Rogue above would roll d20+11 (thanks to the -4 for their large size). Yes, a Second level Rogue can browbeat an Ogre. It's true

I'd suggest that trying to Intimidate more than one opponent at a time is a tricky prospect incurring a -2 penalty for each opponent above the first. A true master of Intimidation can cow down a mob! Reputation will also play a part. I'd be inclined to apply bonuses (or penalties) to the roll if the poor schmuck knows of the character's cruelty (or lenience).

This is the ideal skill setup for someone who wants to play a character like Waylander (by David Gemmell), who can cause even hardened warriors to doubt their own ability to fight without lifting so much as an eyebrow.

Vampires have nothing on a good Intimidate skill

 

[buzz]

It's a Standard Action too, so you can approach the Orc guard and Intimidate him in the first round then attack on the second. He's at -2 to attack if you have demoralized him, and the battle is won before it's begun. Alternatively, you could just ask him to open the door and let you through. He is your "friend", after all

Changing behavior requires 1 minute. Demoralizing in combat takes a Standard Action, but does not make the opponent your friend; it just levys the attack penalty.

I've found Intimidation nigh-useless in play. The actual meaning of "will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated" is so deep in the DM's domain that there's no guarantee that it'll make any difference. Any why blow a Standard Action (or a *feat* to be able to do it faster) to get a piddly -2 for one round when you could grapple, trip, or just kill the orc instead?

Unless you know your DM plays social skills in a meaningful way, Intimidate is a real waste of skill points, IME.

 

[greywulf]

Unless you know your DM plays social skills in a meaningful way, Intimidate is a real waste of skill points, IME.

There's the rub

To me, social skills are what the game is about.

 

[LostSoul]

I've found Intimidation nigh-useless in play. The actual meaning of "will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated" is so deep in the DM's domain that there's no guarantee that it'll make any difference.

I totally agree.

There was a thread in the Rules Forum about a year ago where people argued that a Helpful result on a Diplomacy check means that you will get killed last in combat.

I find that you have to hammer out with the DM how he handles social skills if you are going to rely on them in play.

 

[Ulrik]

Just to clarify a couple of small errors (ie nitpick )

It's a Standard Action too, so you can approach the Orc guard and Intimidate him in the first round then attack on the second. He's at -2 to attack if you have demoralized him, and the battle is won before it's begun. Alternatively, you could just ask him to open the door and let you through. He is your "friend", after all

Like buzz said, it takes 1 minute to change his attitude. Of course, it's still possible to knock him out (maybe by hitting him for non-lethal only once, so you mostly avoid the to-hit penalty - he should still be knocked out before he starts dying), then tie him up and use intimidate to get keys, passwords and todays menu afterwards.

The key is maxing your Intimidate skill to the highest possible level. The ideal path is a Rogue with high Charisma, as this is the only class with both Intimidate and Bluff as core skills.

How about a barbarian with 1 lvl rogue? bbn has intimidate as a class skill, and with that one rogue level you should easily get the 5 ranks required for synergy. Plus, intimidate just fits barbarians.

+15 Intimidate means your average Orc (1 HD, WIS 7) rolls d20-1 for the DC. Even on a roll of 20 for a total of 19, you only need to roll higher than a 4 to browbeat the poor critter.

Unfortunatly, it's just WIS bonus. If the target has a a WIS penalty, it doesn't reduce the DC (because it says bonus, and not modifier).

Otherwise, good post! Makes me want to play a barbarian with maxed intimidate Although it does depend heavily on the DM, you can at least tie them up to get around that pesky 1 minute action time (which doesn't work very well with Diplomacy).

 

[blargney the second]

So when you're trying to change someone's attitude, they can just walk away during the 1 minute you need for the action? That helps a LOT - I've got a player who's taking max ranks in Intimidate for his new character.

 

[LostSoul]

Well, it's a DM call, but I'd let you walk along right after him.

Action: Varies. Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of interaction. Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.

edit: Although it does say "interaction", so a real dick of a DM might decide that anyone can totally blow off an Intimidate check by ignoring the person trying to intimidate them.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The problem with the standard action intimidation effect is that it lasts only for one round. One of my players wanted to use Intimidate in combat and then saw the short time that the effect lasted. He thought, and I am inclined to agree with him, that you are better off using the round that you spent trying to intimidate just trying to chop the guy's head off instead!

Olaf the Stout

 

[GuardianLurker]

Don't forget that the standard action version also requires you to be in *melee* combat.

Batman looming over the punk and getting him to talk without throwing a punch? That's Diplomacy.

Robin Hood standing 60' away from the Sherrif of Nottingham with all the Merry Men at his back, leveling their bows at the Sherrif? That's Diplomacy.

The evil archmage who's just bracketed your party with 4 fireballs and a disjunction, from over 600' away, all in a single round? That's Diplomacy.

Honestly Intimidate is one of the most poorly written rules in 3.5, IMO.

 

[Felix]

The alignment has to be Evil too, which isn't appropriate for all campaigns.

I'm curious as to where you've gotten this from. Sure, it's a [Fear] effect, but it isn't [Evil]. It's the bad cop to Diplomacy's good cop: neither of them have alignment restrictions.

And it's not as if you can walk over people all the time with this skill; you have to live with the consequences of having everyone be unfriendly or hostile to you. This will help if you're using it while traveling through Orc Territory, but in a cosmopolitan environment you're stuck. Ditto if Paladins are sent after you because you're disturbing the peace.

As far as the combat usefulness of Intimidate, no, it isn't very helpful on its own. It is, however, very good when used in conjunction with a few other feats and abilities that produce [Fear] effects. Kiai Shout from Complete Warrior is one; Intimidating Strike from the PHB II is another. When you combine these [Fear] effects, you move an opponent who is Shaken to one who is Frightened.

Perhaps the Frightened state only lasts for one round, but if you are fighting an opposing leader and he turns tail and runs, do you think his minions are going to have their heart in the fight?

No, it's not the most useful skill, because it has such damaging consequences, but used in conjunction with other [Fear] effects, Intimidate makes a great combat tool, and does add to role-playing.