A quick look at Intimidate: the D&D wunderskill

[Christian]

What bugs me is a halfling rogue with a few feats walking up to an ogre chief and being far more successful at intimidating him than, say, a raging barbarian with another creature's blood pouring from his mouth would be.

That's because you're still thinking of the word 'intimidate' instead of the game concepts behind the effects of the Intimidate skill, within the D&D context. The idea is to use credible threats to get an opponent to react predictably in the way that you want. On the 'credible threat' side, bear in mind that in the D&D universe, the raging barbarian could be a 1st-level character, and the halfling a 20th-level rogue. And if the halfling has that many ranks in Intimidate, he probably is pretty high-level, and can do some scary stuff if you cross him. And on the 'create a predictable reaction' side, the articulate character can manipulate the target's emotions much more effectively. The frightened character's reaction to the raging barbarian might be to grab his wand of fireball in panic and empty it in that direction, which is probably not the reaction the bruiser was hoping for. The halfling might be able to rapidly convince him that this is a Really Bad Idea (TM). On these lines, I often think of the 'chess' game between Chewbacca and R2-D2 in the original Star Wars movie (you know, before they ruined the whole thing with sequels and special editions and stuff). Big, strong, dangerous Chewie failed his Intimidate check against the droids spectacularly. After which Han rolled about a 34. "Oh ... I suggest a new strategy, Artoo."

In fact, that's often how I envision the use of Intimidate in a party context. (Don't your adventurers usually have a party? ) The little halfling with the Intimidate ranks can use his raging barbarian friend as the credible threat, to amusing effect. "Hold on, Thog! Don't you remember what happened last time? Buying Speak With Dead spells is expensive, and gold pieces don't grow on trees, you know! ... C'mon, buddy, please tell us what we need to know. I don't know how much longer I can talk him down! And you would not believe how hard it is to get internal organ stains off of this doublet!"

 

[pawsplay]

Suggestion doesn't automatically make the target unfriendly or hostile 10 minutes after you leave. This consequence encourages the exercise of caution and restraint when using the skill, lest he suffer the result of everyone hating him.

"Oh no! He's back, I guess I'll have to mind control him with Intimidate again."

 

[pawsplay]

What bugs me is a halfling rogue with a few feats walking up to an ogre chief and being far more successful at intimidating him than, say, a raging barbarian with another creature's blood pouring from his mouth would be.

Why is that a problem? The raging barbarian is going to make you afraid, but that's not the same thing as being intimidated. If I saw a raging barbarian crashing toward me, and I was a wizard, my inclination would be to hit him with everything I have. If you want to strike fear into the hearts of your enemies because of your naked fury, there is a feat called Fearsome Rage in Complete Warrior that does exactly that.

On the other hand, if I'm a high Charisma duelist who has recently been resurrected and am quite weak, and I manage to get the prince of the realm to back down and allow himself to be tied up by a princess simply by speaking with conviction and raising my sword, that's Intimidate.

Barbarians have Intimidate as a class skill, so the halfling example isn't that persuasive. But even if the halfling was more intimidating, there's no logical problem there. If the halfling and the barbarian were standing next to each other, I could easily see the halfling hooking his thumb over and saying, "Now, you can give me what I want, or I can tell my friend you're not being a chum, and you can explain to him why you feel the need to hurt my feelings."

 

[Endur]

Batman looming over the punk and getting him to talk without throwing a punch? That's Diplomacy.

Robin Hood standing 60' away from the Sherrif of Nottingham with all the Merry Men at his back, leveling their bows at the Sherrif? That's Diplomacy.

The evil archmage who's just bracketed your party with 4 fireballs and a disjunction, from over 600' away, all in a single round? That's Diplomacy.

Yes, its hard to draw the line. One GM could say diplomacy, another intimidate.

 

[LostSoul]

What bugs me is a halfling rogue with a few feats walking up to an ogre chief and being far more successful at intimidating him than, say, a raging barbarian with another creature's blood pouring from his mouth would be.

Don't forget that size modifiers apply to Intimidate, so the halfling has a -8 to his roll.

 

[Hussar]

On the other hand, if I'm a high Charisma duelist who has recently been resurrected and am quite weak, and I manage to get the prince of the realm to back down and allow himself to be tied up by a princess simply by speaking with conviction and raising my sword, that's Intimidate.

Y'Know, I hadn't actually thought of that before, but that makes a perfect example of intimidate. And, hey look, it takes about 1 minute.

 

[Trickstergod]

Picking up the Batman analogy. He appears, stands there looking all dark and malevolent. He rolls Intimidate with fabulously high bonus. Poor crooks are Shaken, at -2 and try to flee. That's round one. Round two, Batman picks up one of the gooks and asks where the Joker is hiding. They tell him. That is Intimidate in action.

No, that's Reputation in action. That's a response cultivated by approximately 10 years of actings as Gotham's defender, where the criminal has heard a plethora of stories about the Bat and quite possibly met up with him on a few, ill-fated occasions.

It's not a cold response that Batman can just do.

Yes, Batman is one scary guy, but a decent chunk of that is built-in from people hearing about or meeting him ahead of time.

True, there's no Reputation mechanic in standard D&D. But that's what allows Batman for the round 2 Intimidate, as it were. Take away the rep and, though Bats will eventually get what he wants, he's going to get shot at a few rounds until he either ties the perp up or survives a full minute of getting shot at and proves he's the mean mother he says he is.

Furthermore, most of the quick, one round examples of Intimidate are going to involve a superior show of force on behalf of the intimidating individual.

Otherwise, if you lack a clear show of force, it is entirely appropriate for at least a minutes worth of interaction to affect a target. Weak as a kitten Wesley is just one example - a pretty good one, involving the synergy from Bluff, at that. And in Humperdink's case, I seem to recall he was a bit of a coward, anyway.

But some halfling rogue just showing up to some vicious demon's doorstep and browbeating him in the span of a round? Short of that rogue having a reputation along the lines of Batman, no, it doesn't seem particularly appropriate for the rogue to have much of a chance at intimidating the creature in the span of 6-12 seconds.

 

[Felix]

"Oh no! He's back, I guess I'll have to mind control him with Intimidate again."

Your NPCs don't talk to each other, do they not?

"Those guys are jerks, don't let them in the store next time; call the cops if they show up again."
"Sergeant, quick, some guys just barged through the door looking like they were on their way to commit murder; I was scared for my life!"
"Sound the alarm and shoot to kill!"
"Don't help..."
"Don't aid..."
"Don't heal..."
"Don't protect..."
"Tell your friends..."
"Tell their sponsor..."
"Tell their guild..."
"Tell their church..."

Mine do. And all of those are perfectly reasonable repercussions from varied instances and frequency of use of Intimidate; it's a useful skill when you're dealing with people who are already hostile, but piss poor when dealing with... everyone else.

"Mind control", indeed: pfaugh.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

The the DM's doing it wrong if it's all up to him and he's ignoring the skill check. But he is allowed to have situational modifiers so the player's good roll might still not be good enough.

The situation you describe in the first sentence is pretty much the same as the situation you describe in the second sentence. In the first sentence, the DM is ignoring the skill check outright, and in the second, he may be ignoring it by stacking a ton of situational modifiers on it. As Rich Burlew points out with his analysis of Diplomacy, it's DM's fiat either way. If you add modifiers you're either going to add enough modifiers to make sure there's a pretty good chance of success, in which case you want the PC to be able to accomplish the task, and you might as well just let him roll anyway, or you don't want the PC to be able to accomplish it, and you'll add enough modifiers that he has no chance, in which case you should have just told him not to buy social skills.

Rich came up with his own solution to the problem, which I think is pretty good. The site is apparently down right now or I'd link it. It makes Diplomacy into a negotiation skill rather than a "making people like me" skill. If the PC can provide x and wants to get y, then the skill fills in for the difference in value between x and y, where x and y are anything that might be considered valuable, from an item to an action, or in extreme cases, nothing at all.

I have to wonder if a similar strategy could be taken with Intimidate. Use the same tables, but make x seem more valuable than it would be under Diplomacy, with the caveat that the character with y knows he's being hosed and will probably take measures to retaliate after a minute or so.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

No, that's Reputation in action. That's a response cultivated by approximately 10 years of actings as Gotham's defender, where the criminal has heard a plethora of stories about the Bat and quite possibly met up with him on a few, ill-fated occasions.

Funny, I interpret the skill as including reputation. The more ranks you have, the more well known you are for being a scary guy. However, there's no indication that a show of force is required for Intimidate to work. Quite the opposite. The skill is Cha-based and does not automatically increase with your ability to wreak havoc. A 14th level barbarian with no ranks in Intimidate will simply fail to scare people. They may live to regret it, but they're just not going to take him seriously because he'll lack the ability to communicate a threat adequately.

On the other hand, a 20th level halfling rogue with the skill maxed out can probably just raise an eyebrow suggestively and make a demand, and the target will simply know that the worst thing he can possibly do is refuse to comply. The barbarian can tie horseshoes into knots, but the halfling carries the threat of "the worst thing you can imagine happening to you" after years of cultivating the skill.

Interestingly, IRL, I'm kind of a scrawny guy but I'm actually pretty good at intimidating people, and have done so on several occasions to help avoid conflict with drunk barhoppers, aggressive homeless people, and other "city encounters". I don't look like I can break your arms, but I can look like I really believe I can, which is enough to make people think twice about starting something. If I'm that damn sure I'm scary enough to make demands of people, I must have something to back it up with, right? As long as they believe that for the duration of the interaction, I can pretty reliably shake them off.

Intimidation is acting. It's telling a story about the possibility of future pain and suffering, while providing an alternate future in which the target gives up whatever it is the Intimidator wants and he goes away. If you're not an actor, you'll fail to convey that story.