Abjurer, a ranged defender

[Quickleaf]

There are also feats in a recent Dragon article which give improved access and free castings based on catagory. This seems like a good free feat to give abjurers.

Great catch. I like the idea of giving an abjurer Warding Mastery, though maybe including Magic Circle or some other iconic rituals in the mix.

Anyway, I still put forward my idea from earlier in the discussion of having the defender ward work like the Shaman's Spirit Companion - enough damage to pop it causes feedback damage to the Abjurer.

Yeah, I think your idea works great. I wonder if there should be a reverse version, though, to model an abjurer needing to focus on defending themself & to give enemies an incentive to focus attacks on the abjurer.

Something along the lines of taking X damage means an abjurer is unable to sustain the ward maybe?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I like the idea of Abjurers having fewer hit points than other defenders, and just being at risk for taking damage via their wards getting popped. That, and the fact that they are warding their allies gives enemies a good incentive to go after them on their own. If it becomes an issue that they don't take enough damage, we could always play with the amount of damage sustained when the ward goes down, or introduce a feature where they take any damage that goes over the amount provided by the ward from the attack that triggered it to pop.

This seems like a class that might also benefit from temp hp, both flavour-wise and mechanically. The other element that could separate them from other defenders is their ability to perhaps help shield their allies from attacks against NADs better than other defenders.

 

[Zaran]

I like the idea of Abjurers having fewer hit points than other defenders, and just being at risk for taking damage via their wards getting popped. That, and the fact that they are warding their allies gives enemies a good incentive to go after them on their own. If it becomes an issue that they don't take enough damage, we could always play with the amount of damage sustained when the ward goes down, or introduce a feature where they take any damage that goes over the amount provided by the ward from the attack that triggered it to pop.

This seems like a class that might also benefit from temp hp, both flavour-wise and mechanically. The other element that could separate them from other defenders is their ability to perhaps help shield their allies from attacks against NADs better than other defenders.

I think thp would be a better balance than a straight Resist all 5. This is because if all the monsters attacked one warded ally. ( my group would immediately put a warded ally up front ) then the abjurer would get many op attacks. If the wards granted thp instead, then the ward would get used up.

The other issue I see is that the damage will get spread around more than a typical defender would allow. This would mean the party would not be able to do as many milestones.

 

[Quickleaf]

The other issue I see is that the damage will get spread around more than a typical defender would allow. This would mean the party would not be able to do as many milestones.

Could you walk me through that one? I'm not quite getting it.

 

[Gort]

Yeah, I agree with the others here. If the abjurer himself is not getting hit, there's no real reason to give him defender-level hitpoints. He's ranged, he's going to hide away at the back of the party.

Either give him a use for those extra hitpoints or take them away - don't just give him 6 HP a level because his role is defender.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I rather like the idea of exploring the design space of a semi-fragile defender. I'm thinking 10+4 for hit points and 9+ for surges. What do you think of that?

Obviously this will require some playtesting to strike the right balance.

Int primary is pretty obvious. What should the secondary options be, and how will we define sub-builds? Will we even have them? Maybe we should design it like an e-class, and do away with A or V structure. Con seems like the obvious choice for riders to key off of, but I can see a case to be made for both Wisdom and Charisma as well.

Opinions?

 

[Quickleaf]

I rather like the idea of exploring the design space of a semi-fragile defender. I'm thinking 10+4 for hit points and 9+ for surges. What do you think of that?

So the idea is that the arcane wards act as a "buffer zone" to soak up damage, but past a certain point the abjurer quickly gets into a life-threatening situation. Right?

Enemies are faced with two options: either focus fire on the warded ally to break the ward (dealing damage to the abjurer), or go straight for the abjurer - kill him and all the wards end.

Which probably means the abjurer is going to need some protective magic of his own - some kind of a blocking/negation aura.

What might make the abjurer tactically interesting is the option to choose between weakly warding several allies or strongly warding one ally. This could tie in to a punishment mechanic like so...


Arcane Ward
Standard Action, Close Burst 10

Choose either a group ward or an individual ward.

Group Ward: Several allies gain resist X (or X temporary hit points). Once per round, you may take an opportunity ranged basic attack against an enemy that attacks someone in the ward. Whenever a ward falls, the abjurer takes 1/3 X damage.

Individual Ward: One ally gains resist 3X (or 3X temporary hit points). You may take opportunity ranged basic attacks against any enemies that attack the warded individual. If the ward fails, the abjurer takes X damage.

Sustain (minor): A group ward or an individual ward persists.


Hmm, I'm not convinced resist (or temporary hit points) is the way to go.
I'm wondering if this abjurer concept could be the artificer equivalent for a defender. The artificer allows allies to share healing surges - that's one of their key unique features as a leader. Maybe the abjurer could allow allies to share damage or defenses through the form of arcane wards. Just an idea.

Int primary is pretty obvious. What should the secondary options be, and how will we define sub-builds? Will we even have them? Maybe we should design it like an e-class, and do away with A or V structure. Con seems like the obvious choice for riders to key off of, but I can see a case to be made for both Wisdom and Charisma as well.

Though I personally prefer e-classes, I think builds could focus on different aspects of abjuration: protection, negation, blocking, banishing, etc.

For example, a "banishing abjurer" build might add a rider to his arcane wards so that an enemy who did insufficient damage (or an enemy hit by the abjurer's opportunity ranged basic attack) would be teleported. Likewise the "banishing abjurer" could be protected by an aura which teleports one enemy away per round.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

So the idea is that the arcane wards act as a "buffer zone" to soak up damage, but past a certain point the abjurer quickly gets into a life-threatening situation. Right?

Enemies are faced with two options: either focus fire on the warded ally to break the ward (dealing damage to the abjurer), or go straight for the abjurer - kill him and all the wards end.

Which probably means the abjurer is going to need some protective magic of his own - some kind of a blocking/negation aura.

Yeah, something like that. I think if the obvious tactical choice is going to be to attack the abjurer (which is really what defenders want, after all), the abjurer must be able to negate, block, resist, or avoid taking the damage in the first place. Clearly, they need a decent defender AC, but also solid NADs, because a lot more ranged attacks go after those defences, especially at higher levels. To compensate, their AC probably shouldn't be top-notch. I think it's safe to assume a +4 or 5 from Int and cloth armour, so they need something like the swordmage warding to keep up on AC. A swordmage also gets leather, so giving Abjurers a +3 and no leather should be a good starting point, assuming they get some boost to the other defences in return. Or perhaps their warding is +2 all instead. Just tossing ideas here.

Things like Unarmoured Agility and/or Hafted Defence are going to be top picks for Abjurers, as is Staff Fighting, and Staff Expertise. Rod is also not a bad choice for them.

I think they would also be slotting things like Shield or the new Witch level 2 utility that works the same but is +2 to all defences.

What might make the abjurer tactically interesting is the option to choose between weakly warding several allies or strongly warding one ally. This could tie in to a punishment mechanic like so...


Arcane Ward
Standard Action, Close Burst 10

Choose either a group ward or an individual ward.

Group Ward: Several allies gain resist X (or X temporary hit points). Once per round, you may take an opportunity ranged basic attack against an enemy that attacks someone in the ward. Whenever a ward falls, the abjurer takes 1/3 X damage.

Individual Ward: One ally gains resist 3X (or 3X temporary hit points). You may take opportunity ranged basic attacks against any enemies that attack the warded individual. If the ward fails, the abjurer takes X damage.

Sustain (minor): A group ward or an individual ward persists.


Hmm, I'm not convinced resist (or temporary hit points) is the way to go.
I'm wondering if this abjurer concept could be the artificer equivalent for a defender. The artificer allows allies to share healing surges - that's one of their key unique features as a leader. Maybe the abjurer could allow allies to share damage or defenses through the form of arcane wards. Just an idea.


Though I personally prefer e-classes, I think builds could focus on different aspects of abjuration: protection, negation, blocking, banishing, etc.

For example, a "banishing abjurer" build might add a rider to his arcane wards so that an enemy who did insufficient damage (or an enemy hit by the abjurer's opportunity ranged basic attack) would be teleported. Likewise the "banishing abjurer" could be protected by an aura which teleports one enemy away per round.

Those are some excellent idea seeds. I shall have to put my thinking cap on and see if I can come up with some other good ideas. I particularly like the idea of a banishing abjurer being able to teleport foes. Lots of opportunity for powers that "remove from play" at higher levels - even for allies who are critical or dead.

Another idea for the Arcane Ward would be to have it function like an aura. I really like aura mechanics and it would be fun to do something with that.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yeah, something like that. I think if the obvious tactical choice is going to be to attack the abjurer (which is really what defenders want, after all), the abjurer must be able to negate, block, resist, or avoid taking the damage in the first place. Clearly, they need a decent defender AC, but also solid NADs, because a lot more ranged attacks go after those defences, especially at higher levels. To compensate, their AC probably shouldn't be top-notch. I think it's safe to assume a +4 or 5 from Int and cloth armour, so they need something like the swordmage warding to keep up on AC. A swordmage also gets leather, so giving Abjurers a +3 and no leather should be a good starting point, assuming they get some boost to the other defences in return. Or perhaps their warding is +2 all instead. Just tossing ideas here.

What if the abjurer had a feature to transfer personal damage into an arcane ward as an immediate reaction? Maybe resisting any "miss" effects in the process?

Another idea for the Arcane Ward would be to have it function like an aura. I really like aura mechanics and it would be fun to do something with that.

Have you looked at the skald in the Fewywild book? It has an aura which can get different properties according to stances IIRC.

Actually the stance/aura idea could tie into [MENTION=57584]RyukenAngel[/MENTION] 's idea for features granting variable defense bonuses. Sort of an uber shield power which is always active but can only bolster one NAD at a time.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Int primary is pretty obvious. What should the secondary options be, and how will we define sub-builds? Will we even have them? Maybe we should design it like an e-class, and do away with A or V structure. Con seems like the obvious choice for riders to key off of, but I can see a case to be made for both Wisdom and Charisma as well.
Opinions?

I'd say CON & WIS secondary. They're already established wizard secondaries, of course.

WIS could represent an abjurer who uses specialized wards to counter specific enemies (specific origins, damage types, etc), depending on his knowledge and mental discipline to get them just right.

CON could represent an abjurer who puts his life-force on the line, using it to empower more generally-protective wards.