Absurd AoO.... what can be done?

[delericho]

A move action is a single action and if you move though multiple squares that someone threatens, do you not generate multiple AoOs?

No. Per the SRD:

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

 

[Neonchameleon]

AoOs are ridiculous anyway. If Inigo and Westley are dueling, and Fezzik walks behind Westley's back, the Dread Pirate can spin around and take his opportunity attack without apparently ever dropping his guard against Inigo.

From that same movie:
Fezzik: I just figured why you give me so much trouble.

Dread Pirate Roberts: Why's that, do you think?

Fezzik: Well, I haven't fought just one person for so long. I've been specializing in groups. Battling gangs for local charities, that kind of thing.

Dread Pirate Roberts: Why should that make such a difference?

Fezzik: Well, you see, you use different moves when you're fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to be worried about ... one.


Opportunity attacks are also intended to handle Darwin Awards rather than skill of the attacker. Whenever you provoke you are doing something weird in melee that you probably shouldn't be doing.

 

[delericho]

From that same movie:

...

Fezzik: Well, you see, you use different moves when you're fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to be worried about ... one.

Opportunity attacks are also intended to handle Darwin Awards rather than skill of the attacker. Whenever you provoke you are doing something weird in melee that you probably shouldn't be doing.

Indeed. Though RW is on much firmer ground when he points out:

Also, you get one bonus attack this way per round (unless you have Combat Reflexes). So by the logic of the game, I guess if someone nearby you isn't defending themselves, you can attack them for free, right? But the rules won't let you, say, use your opportunity attack to cut a rope holding up a chandelier, or to stab an enemy caught with hold person. I mean, they're not defending themselves, are they?

Especially in something like the "cut a rope" example, it does seem ridiculous that a character might be able to take half a dozen AoOs and yet not be able to spare a moment for that!

Edit: 'course, that was before the introduction of the Swift action type. With the introduction of that, there's an argument for some things being re-assigned (with "attack an object" a likely candidate).

 

[tomBitonti]

Indeed, AOO's are weird when you consider helpless opponents:

If you drop into a barracks with sleeping opponents, with four immediately adjacent, you must use an attack action to attack any of them, even though they lay helpless. But if they awaken and spring up, each draws an AOO (for rising from prone). You get more attacks when they are up and mobile than when they are sleeping helpless.

But, you can't remove AOO's because they fix the problem of the loss of simultaneous action in circular initiative:

Starting with the premise that an attack is not an instant effect: When you attack, you are spending several seconds trying to find a weak spot in the opponents defenses, with a cumulative result over those several seconds. Possible, resulting in a single effective blow, but possibly also a number of smaller cuts, or even just a whittling of the opponents resolve.

Then, while you are attacking, during the same time your opponent should be able to attack back.

But, if you move away after your attack, your opponent is deprived of their attack option, even though they were next to you during a whole attack action.

That you draw an AOO for moving away resolves this problem.

Thx!

TomB

 

[delericho]

But, you can't remove AOO's because they fix the problem of the loss of simultaneous action in circular initiative:

Starting with the premise that an attack is not an instant effect: ...

Then, while you are attacking, during the same time your opponent should be able to attack back.

But, if you move away after your attack, your opponent is deprived of their attack option, even though they were next to you during a whole attack action.

That you draw an AOO for moving away resolves this problem.

Yep. But then it gets even stranger when you factor in the 5-foot step which doesn't provoke, and allows a caster (for example) to get some breathing space to cast a spell, despite that in a 'real' situation his opponent would might right along with him and hit him while distracted.

 

[RangerWickett]

I thus propose we eliminate OAs/AoOs and implement two rules.

Alert Stance: Full round action. Move up to your speed. Once your turn ends, until the start of your next turn, whenever a creature you can see would provoke an opportunity attack during the normal rules, you can use any leftover movement to move to them and attack them as an interrupt. (E.g., if your speed is 30 and you moved 10 feet on your turn, you can run up to 20 feet to hit someone.) You still only get 1 OA per round; if you have Combat Reflexes you can take more, but you don't get to move more than your normal speed.

Reckless Behavior: If you take an action that would normally provoke an opportunity attack, you take a -4 penalty to AC until the start of your next turn.

 

[emanresu]

as far as sleeping opponents or "other" defenseless targets we allow 1 roll for the target to perceive, be it listen, feeling of vibration thru floor boards or the gratuitous opening of eyes right at the time of attack. This allows a roll off, the attacker is trying to sneak up and be quiet, he rolls, and the sleeper at least gets a roll. OHH there are penalties to his roll, for sure, buuut at least its a roll. This is usually a coupe de grass killing strike. Some DMs I have played with just rule it a confirmed crit.

As far as those sleepers in above example they would all have zero initiative until they perceived a threat. So a rogue might be able to slaughter them in their sleep, 1 after the other, providing that they all remain asleep eg. not being alerted to any threat. The victims will have to be brought to negative hit points in 1 attack, thus being unconscious from the attack, less they flail about n scream alerting others of the threat. They cant react until their initiative, so this usually give a rogue a couple of SAs at least. There would be the surprise round and then flat footed until their initiative.

AoO would not be based on stealth and delivering a killing shot (CDG) but rather based on speed, so sure if you would rule the attacker gets to attack all 4 sleepers in his threatened area all these attacks would not be quiet nor the best wollop/ damaging attack, they would just be fast. The result would be thumping and banging, "ouch that really hurt" and probably waking the 3rd n 4th sleeper and you would here the "WTF" they would more than likely be thinking.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

The combat modifiers section of the PHB and SRD has information on helpless defenders. In the PHB it starts on page 153. Helpless defenders are specifically at the attacker's mercy in some way such as being unconscious, paralyzed, sleeping, etc. Of note is the defender not only doesn't get its Dex bonus to AC, it's actually treated as having a Dex of 0 and thus gets -5 on AC since its Dex mod is -5.

That being said, a creature provoking an AoO is very different from a helpless one as well as a flat-footed one or one denied its normal Dex bonus to AC. One that provokes an AoO is only letting its guard down enough to let something else get a quick attack in. It's definitely not at the attacker's mercy any more than an untrained thug throwing a punch is (and the rules do say that a regular unarmed strike without Improved Unarmed Strike provokes an AoO). A tumbling character can avoid provoking an AoO because it's moving in such a way that getting a quick hit in won't work, assuming the check is made.

Along those lines, that section about helpless defenders includes the rules for Coup de Grace. A CDG is an automatic hit and automatic critical hit (it literally says "You automatically hit and score a critical hit.") because the attacker has plenty of time to "line up the shot" so to speak.

 

[tomBitonti]

One presumes that rolls have already been made to tell if the sleepers notice the interloper and wake up.

One could grant listen extra rolls after every attack. But, if the sleep is magically induced, those might be hard to make.

A coup-de-grace can be attempted, but, that is a full round action which itself provokes attacks of opportunity, and you could only take one of those in a round.

Thx!

TomB

 

[DrunkonDuty]

It's these sorts of rules problems that remind me why I run everything in HERO system nowadays.

Sorry, couldn't resist the smugness.