Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Stalker0]

It says you hit. (Specifically, it says you score a critical hit.)

That means: you hit.

I think this is the crux of Nifft's argument, and is what I will make my counterpoint against.

I think everyone agrees that the PP ability gives you a critical hit. But....Draco's point is that the rules specifically say that a Critical Hit DOESN'T mean its an Actual Hit.

Critical "hit" is a misnomer. The Precision rule states that critical hits on die rolls other than a 20 may not be a hit. You still have to confirm the attack roll.

So if I roll 2 2's on my die, its a critical hit. But the precision rule states that I have to check the die rule to see if its an actual hit. More than likely its not, so I still miss.



That said, I believe there is a rule that states that if a critical hit "misses", you still treat it like a regular (non critical) hit. However, perhaps that rule is only rolling on a 20, and I could be completely mistaken on this point.

Lastly, let me say that its good to see an actual rules debate in the rules forum. This forum had gotten quite boring lately!

 

[DracoSuave]

That said, I believe there is a rule that states that if a critical hit "misses", you still treat it like a regular (non critical) hit. However, perhaps that rule is only rolling on a 20, and I could be completely mistaken on this point.

Only on natural 20s that you'd otherwise miss with.

Technically doesn't happen often enough to worry about tho.

 

[N8Ball]

I think this is the crux of Nifft's argument, and is what I will make my counterpoint against.

I think everyone agrees that the PP ability gives you a critical hit. But....Draco's point is that the rules specifically say that a Critical Hit DOESN'T mean its an Actual Hit.

Critical "hit" is a misnomer. The Precision rule states that critical hits on die rolls other than a 20 may not be a hit. You still have to confirm the attack roll.

Excellent summary Stalker.

I believe that the rules do support that a critical hit is a hit. My reasoning comes from the descriptions of "Critical hit" under attacks on page 277 and twice under the "Critical hit" section on page 278.

under Attacks PHB 277: "If you roll a natural 20 your attack might be a critical hit."

under Critical Hits PHB 278: "When you roll a 20 and your total attack roll is high enough to hit your targets defense, you score a critical hit.."

The wording in each those cases already includes caveats for the hit to satisfy before it qualifies as a critical hit. Those caveats need to be satisfied before the rules even declare a critical hit. So the term critical hit does not include the requirements, they were met before we even got to the term.

The sections "Natural 20" and "Precision" tell you when to apply the crit, the next 2 sections tell you what a critical hit is.

Normal requirements for a crit: your attack roll must hit the defense, you must roll a 20.
Effects of a crit: max damage, some extra damage from magic and such.

My point is that the term "critical hit" only implies a max damage hit, and the normal rules surrounding when to apply that are superceded by the specific conditions set out in the feature.

 

[Nifft]

I think this is the crux of Nifft's argument, and is what I will make my counterpoint against.

I think everyone agrees that the PP ability gives you a critical hit. But....Draco's point is that the rules specifically say that a Critical Hit DOESN'T mean its an Actual Hit.

Critical "hit" is a misnomer. The Precision rule states that critical hits on die rolls other than a 20 may not be a hit. You still have to confirm the attack roll.

So if I roll 2 2's on my die, its a critical hit. But the precision rule states that I have to check the die rule to see if its an actual hit. More than likely its not, so I still miss.

There are two counter arguments:

1. The word "can". There's a word of difference between "you can crit" and "you crit", and that word could mean a world of difference. I'd argue "you can score a critical hit" doesn't conflict with Precision, while "you score a critical hit" does conflict.

2. Specific trumps general. Since two rules conflict, we need to decide which one is more specific. Is Precision more specific than Holy Ardor? It looks like Precision is more general to me, but I'm not sure there's an objective way to measure specificity.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DracoSuave]

The sections "Natural 20" and "Precision" tell you when to apply the crit, the next 2 sections tell you what a critical hit is.

Actually, Precision doesn't tell you when to apply a crit. It tells you that other abilities exist that tell you when to apply a crit, and that those abilities do not automaticly hit.

That's a big difference.

 

[DracoSuave]

There are two counter arguments:

1. The word "can". There's a word of difference between "you can crit" and "you crit", and that word could mean a world of difference. I'd argue "you can score a critical hit" doesn't conflict with Precision, while "you score a critical hit" does conflict.

2. Specific trumps general. Since two rules conflict, we need to decide which one is more specific. Is Precision more specific than Holy Ardor? It looks like Precision is more general to me, but I'm not sure there's an objective way to measure specificity.

Cheers, -- N

Sure there is. Precision refers to abilities that tell you to score a critical hit other than a natural 20. Holy Ardor is such an ability. Therefore Precision refers to and trumps it. Precision does not apply to abilities that give you automatic critical hits (for example, Channel Divinity: Righteous Cheese of Tempus pre-errata) nor to abilities that change the die roll to a natural 20 (Oath of Emnity.)

As well, exceptions to rules are not exempt from the rules that govern those exceptions. For example, feats that let your powers knock things prone don't get to ignore the rules for how prone works without an explicit out. Sure, knocking things prone as a feat is an exception to the normal ways it is done, but the rule that governs prone is still applicable.

Contrast that with abilities that knock a guy prone then say he can't get up for a turn. The rule for prone governs it, but the 'can't get up for a turn' then acts as an exception to -that- rule.

So, while I definately agree that the class feature IS an exception to a general rules on how crits work, I don't agree that the same feature is an exception to Precision, simply because Precision is a rule that explicitly governs exceptions to how critical hits work, and nothing in the feature acts as an exception tot he rules that govern abilities of that type.

 

[N8Ball]

Actually, Precision doesn't tell you when to apply a crit. It tells you that other abilities exist that tell you when to apply a crit, and that those abilities do not automaticly hit.

That's a big difference.

There's a fundamental problem with a general rule (like precision) putting restrictions on specific feats and features that are meant to break the general rules.

Like Nifft said, Precision does not contradict the mastery feats. They all say you can score a critical hit, just like the rules for a crit say you can crit with a 20 if you meet other requirements. Even the general rule for natural 20s doesn't have such strong language saying you DO crit.

Holy Ardor does not say you can crit, it says you DO crit. Applying precision to this case is having the specific rule overruled by the general rule.

That ain't right.

 

[urzafrank]

why is this confusing?

On page 276 in the PHB It has rules that state that a natural 20 roll may not be a critical hit. On page 278 it defines what a critical hit is and how you get them. They even go to the trouble of giving a critical hit another name (crit) to prevent this type of absurd argument. The games uses terms some of these terms are made up of more than one word. Splitting up the words in the terms is a mistake. If this feature had used the language crit as opposed to critical hit no one would be having this debate and since the terms are interchangeable i do not see what the issue is. The specific trumps general is in cases of contradiction but there is none of that here. Critical Hit and Automatic Hit are terms and as cannot be separated into the component words. Precision refers to Critical Hits and only to Critical Hits. The part about only 20 being an Automatic Hit is just a reminder of a different rule which is why it is in parentheses.

 

[Nifft]

If this feature had used the language crit as opposed to critical hit no one would be having this debate

Agreed. If they'd either used the word "can" or the word "automatic", then there would be no room for debate.

They didn't, so there is.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flipguarder]

If however you take the permissive approach (which by my perception is actually RAW until someone can prove to me the Precision is NOT the general rule, and I repeat, its not wording that makes a rule specific, its breadth of application) it puts the power on par with similar crit effecting PP's.

I believe you are intelligent enough to know that balancing all crit effecting PP features around one another and ignoring the power of the rest of each paragon path is not a correct way of thinking.

That's not to say that after you do that, the PP is underpowered in your stated case. But I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page as far as balancing path features.