Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Flipguarder]

Wait, really? Critical hits are unrelated to hits that are critical?

Actually the answer to this question is yes. Critical hits are an extra deal that happens in certain situations. Normally it only counts for rolling a 20 on an attack roll. If you have crit range, or in this case, gain this Ardent champion path feature, you gain the ability to score critical hits in other situations.

But this does not change the fact that the only way to score an AUTOMATIC hit, is to roll a 20. There is a completely separate rule to this. The term Critical Hit, is a misnomer.

 

[Nifft]

But this does not change the fact that the only way to score an AUTOMATIC hit, is to roll a 20.

That's not true at all.

Aside from the well-known original Righteous Rage power, here's another.

-- N

 

[Flipguarder]

That's not true at all.

I hope you are being funny and know what I meant.

PHB 278 "(only a natural 20 is an automatic hit)."

Actually now that I'm reading this more thoroughly

Precision: Some class features and powers allow
you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers
other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).

I see this as instantly eliminating the issue. for a few reasons.

1. Obviously precision is meant to include feats, item properties, path features what not.
2. In any case of crit possibility expansion, it still retains the idea of "critical hit".
3. If you take critical hit to mean automatic hit, then the last sentence of the precision rule is absolute nonsense.
4. It is safe to assume that the designer meant for that sentence to make sense within their system. Therefore it is SAFER to assume that the rule applys then to assume that specific versus general completely makes absurd this rule.

 

[Regicide]

Wait, really? Critical hits are unrelated to hits that are critical?

Avoid argument by nonsensical word play. Lovely. I'll pretend you're being serious.

Rule 453: If A then do rule 8.
Rule 8: If X then miss, else apply extra damage.

Are rule 453 and rule 8 related in a specific and general sense? No. They are both DnD rules, and the application of one requires the other but they are not related.

 

[Nifft]

Avoid argument by nonsensical word play. Lovely. I'll pretend you're being serious.

Rule 453: If A then do rule 8.
Rule 8: If X then miss, else apply extra damage.

Are rule 453 and rule 8 related in a specific and general sense? No. They are both DnD rules, and the application of one requires the other but they are not related.

No, see, the whole discussion so far has centered around the (perceived) ambiguity of the phrase: "you score a critical hit".

If that phrase means: "you hit, and the hit is a critical", then the phrase is a specific rule which overrides the general one.


But honestly, if you can't be arsed to at least skim the pages of this discussion, you're not treating those of us who typed those pages with a whole lot of respect.

Repeating arguments that have already been discussed isn't going to garner the quality of response you seem to want.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

I hope you are being funny and know what I meant.

PHB 278 "(only a natural 20 is an automatic hit)."

Actually now that I'm reading this more thoroughly


I see this as instantly eliminating the issue. for a few reasons.

1. Obviously precision is meant to include feats, item properties, path features what not.
2. In any case of crit possibility expansion, it still retains the idea of "critical hit".
3. If you take critical hit to mean automatic hit, then the last sentence of the precision rule is absolute nonsense.
4. It is safe to assume that the designer meant for that sentence to make sense within their system. Therefore it is SAFER to assume that the rule applys then to assume that specific versus general completely makes absurd this rule.

You're making the same mistake Draco made.

Precision sure looks like a meta-rule -- a rule which governs other rules.

But 4e isn't about "base" rules and "meta" rules. It's got a single, clear standard of precedence. That standard is: specific beats general.

Precision applies until and unless it conflicts with a more specific rule. It does conflict with Holy Ardor, so it does not apply.

- - -

The last sentence of Precision isn't nonsense. It's there to separate "can crit" from "do hit".

All those epic feats which give you 19-20 crit range (and do not say anything about "do hit", only about "can crit") are unambiguous because of Precision.

Cheers, -- N

 

[urzafrank]

Would you mind posting the text you're talking about?

Thanks, -- N

In my earlier post i made the statement that if the book had used the words "crit" instead of "critical hit" there would be no argument. Your response was that you agree with that idea and then added that had if they included the words "can" or "automatic hit" again there would be no debate. My post is to point out that on Page 278 of the PHB the rules state that the term "Critical hit" is also called a "crit"

So my question to you is that if WOTC uses the terms as to mean the same thing why do you not?

 

[Nifft]

In my earlier post i made the statement that if the book had used the words "crit" instead of "critical hit" there would be no argument. Your response was that you agree with that idea and then added that had if they included the words "can" or "automatic hit" again there would be no debate. My post is to point out that on Page 278 of the PHB the rules state that the term "Critical hit" is also called a "crit"

So my question to you is that if WOTC uses the terms as to mean the same thing why do you not?

What I agreed with was: the rule needs to be more clearly written.

Then, I gave an example of what (to me) would be clear writing.

Why do I NOT agree that "under X condition, you score a critical hit" is identical to "under Y condition, you can score a critical hit"? Because they say different things. One says "can crit", the other says "do crit".

"Do-be-do-be-do-be-do", -- N

 

[DracoSuave]

But 4e isn't about "base" rules and "meta" rules. It's got a single, clear standard of precedence. That standard is: specific beats general.

Governing rules don't exist?

Then what is the entire purpose of the tactical movement section in the PHB other than to tell you what 'teleport' 'push' 'pull' 'crawl' and all that means?

The list of conditions? I'm interested how you knock people prone in your games, because according to your above statement, 'prone' doesn't have a governing rule telling you how to run it.

The entire combat section is page after page after page after page of meta-rules. Of rules that govern how the exceptions work.

Seriously. Those things work but somehow, critical hits don't, because 'There are no meta-rules?'

That's simply incorrect.

 

[Mirtek]

That's not true at all.

Aside from the well-known original Righteous Rage power, here's another.

-- N

Actually the original Righteous Rage power required you to hit before turning it into a crit.