Affairs

[Kramodlog]

I understand the point. Not sure I personally agree that it is appropriate for kids, though. That you present it in a way that seems "soft" to us does not mean it is usefully preparing kids to deal with the issues - because emotionally, they just aren't ready to deal with sexual relationships at that age.

What will happen? They will start crying and have nightmares? Kids play doctor all the time, it seems like a pretty natural way to express their curiosity and sexuality, if we can call it that.

The fact that it generated complaints, and that we have a Grandma Rule such that I had to redact it, rather indicates that our culture, on the whole, is not ready for such to be presented to children on the whole.

This is what I'm advocating. Change that culture and start where it will take root: the kids. Why just say it is the way it is if you believe it the right thing? It leaves the status quo in place.

If you have kids, do what you will, but don't expect to see that in public school kindergartens any time soon.

I see this like vaccines. Kids need to be vaccinated cause bad stuff will happen if they aren't. At some point parents need to be taken out of the equation cause they can't make the right decision for kids. Kids aren't property, they are adults in the becoming. They need to be given all the proper tools to maximize their chances at a succesful life as adults. What if someone said math or reading shouldn't be taught to kids? It would be pretty ridiculus. It is the same for sex ed. Parents resisted when laws were passed to keep kids in school instead of letting them go work in shops or in the fields, but it was the right decision.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

At some point parents need to be taken out of the equation cause they can't make the right decision for kids. Kids aren't property, they are adults in the becoming. They need to be given all the proper tools to maximize their chances at a succesful life as adults. What if someone said math or reading shouldn't be taught to kids? It would be pretty ridiculus. It is the same for sex ed. Parents resisted when laws were passed to keep kids in school instead of letting them go work in shops or in the fields, but it was the right decision.

I'd rephrase that a mite: at some point, parents need to be taken out of the equation because SOME won't make decisions in the best interests of the kids or society as a whole.

As was noted by someone a LOT smarter than myself:

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”


― Isaac Asimov

So, when the facts are clear, there is a definite role to be played by the society as a whole in trumping the desires of the few.

 

[Kramodlog]

I'd rephrase that a mite: at some point, parents need to be taken out of the equation because SOME won't make decisions in the best interests of the kids or society as a whole.

As was noted by someone a LOT smarter than myself:


So, when the facts are clear, there is a definite role to be played by the society as a whole in trumping the desires of the few.

Seems appropriate.

 

[Zombie_Babies]

The fact that it generated complaints, and that we have a Grandma Rule such that I had to redact it, rather indicates that our culture, on the whole, is not ready for such to be presented to children on the whole. If you have kids, do what you will, but don't expect to see that in public school kindergartens any time soon.

I get what you're sayin' but I don't think this particular instance is really support for the idea that some aren't comfortable with the topic being taught to kids. There's some other layers at play here.

But yeah, I have to agree - our culture isn't ready. We're still terrified of nudity but incredibly comfortable with violence. It doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense but it's damned sure the case.

EDIT: Derp, forgot half the point. Anyhoo, this goes to what goldo is saying. It's not like society is just gonna magically become comfortable some day. It needs to be pushed in that direction and doing something like goldo suggests - starting with kids - may be the push that's needed. I'm not saying it is but I am saying that it may be better than just sitting around waiting for change to miracle itself into our reality.

 

[Nellisir]

And I'm so bleepin' sick of people trying to pretend that allowing whatever sex they don't morally like automatically means that kids are gonna get touched. That's messed up and I'd hate to see how that sort of person's mind works.

Kids cannot give consent. Neither can animals, for that matter. That's why we have the term "consenting adults".

 

[Umbran]

What will happen? They will start crying and have nightmares?

If done really badly? It can lead to kids having horrible misconceptions and hampered social and emotional development regarding human sexuality.

Now, we already have a lot of misconceptions and such. But at least it isn't systemic. The unintended consequences can be kind of nasty when you start doing this to lots of people.

Kids play doctor all the time, it seems like a pretty natural way to express their curiosity and sexuality, if we can call it that.

Well, setting aside how sometimes even those interactions between kids don't end well - the power dynamic is entirely different. Child-adult interactions are not the same as child-peer interactions.

This is what I'm advocating. Change that culture and start where it will take root: the kids. Why just say it is the way it is if you believe it the right thing? It leaves the status quo in place.

Because I don't believe the public school system can or will handle it better for children of such young age. There are both well-meaning people, and folks with agendas and axes to grind that have hefty influence on public school curriculums, who turn subjects into things they should not be. When you're hanging views of human sexuality into the mix, that's a recipe for disaster.

If the educational system were really solid and healthy, I might be willing to consider it, if you had good behavior science backing you up rather than just personal assertion. But, as a practical matter, there are many things we'd need to fix before we could address such with kids that young.

At some point parents need to be taken out of the equation cause they can't make the right decision for kids.

The science behind vaccination is pretty clear. I am not convinced the science on sexuality is behind you on this - the child psych world may not agree that this is a good idea.

 

[Kramodlog]

Kids cannot give consent. Neither can animals, for that matter. That's why we have the term "consenting adults".

A European court had an interesting take on the matter regarding Germany's prohibition on home schooling.

In September 2006, the European Court of Human Rights upheld the German ban on homeschooling, stating "parents may not refuse... [compulsory schooling] on the basis of their convictions", and adding that the right to education "calls for regulation by the State". The European Court took the position that the plaintiffs were the children, not their parents, and declared "children are unable to foresee the consequences of their parents' decision for home education because of their young age.... Schools represent society, and it is in the children's interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to educate does not go as far as to deprive their children of that experience."

 

[Kramodlog]

If done really badly? It can lead to kids having horrible misconceptions and hampered social and emotional development regarding human sexuality.

If done badly all sort of things can have bad results. Rhinoplasty comes to mind. I do not think anyone is advocating incompetence.

Well, setting aside how sometimes even those interactions between kids don't end well - the power dynamic is entirely different. Child-adult interactions are not the same as child-peer interactions.

You're saying the whole student-teacher dynamic is problematic? I'll imagine that is not what you're saying, so why would that one area of education be more problematic than math?

Because I don't believe the public school system can or will handle it better for children of such young age. There are both well-meaning people, and folks with agendas and axes to grind that have hefty influence on public school curriculums, who turn subjects into things they should not be. When you're hanging views of human sexuality into the mix, that's a recipe for disaster.

No more than math, english class, [insert secondary language class], history, gym class, home ed, etc. Sex ain't really that special when you come to think of it.

If the educational system were really solid and healthy, I might be willing to consider it, if you had good behavior science backing you up rather than just personal assertion. But, as a practical matter, there are many things we'd need to fix before we could address such with kids that young.

The science behind vaccination is pretty clear. I am not convinced the science on sexuality is behind you on this - the child psych world may not agree that this is a good idea.

Aren't those also just personal assertions on your part?

It has been happening in Chicago. They seem to base their program off a document backed by a lot of credible professionals who agree with me. There seems to be a lot of benefits to sex education.

 

[Nellisir]

A European court had an interesting take on the matter regarding Germany's prohibition on home schooling.

What does that have to do with my statement?

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

What does that have to do with my statement?

it looks like the quote is referring to a child's
Ability to give consent.