D&D 5E Alertness & initative Query

[Noctem]

For your questions: if a player does not have alert then he will be surprised and can't take any action before the surprising enemies. I think that situation clearly works.

No, it in fact doesn't. You said that the moment the monster wants to attack, IE declares intent, you then roll initiative. All the questions are still relevant regardless of if surprise is a factor or not. Why am I rolling initiative if there's no threat or reason to? Oh I'm being attacked? Ok, by who? I don't know who yet? Ok. Well I take the dodge action since I'm in combat! Oh I can't? Why? Because I'm surprised? But why am I surprised if nothing has happened? And also, why am I surprised if the person who is attacking me is slower than me at attacking? etc..

You've got quite a few problems to deal with for such a simple scenario. It only works properly if the monster attacking goes first. Which is a problem in of itself since if you roll initiative you never have a guarantee of that happening. You're also incorrect in how you're applying surprise if it's how you just explained. You are no longer considered surprised after your first turn. If you go first as a wizard and then end your turn, you can absolutely use Shield as a Reaction vs an attack against you after your turn ends. So your statement that someone can't take any action before the surprising enemies is incorrect.

So your question must be about what a PC with alert does if initiative is called and there is not visible sign of a threat. I treat alert as spiderman's spidey sense. Thus the PC with alert knows as soon as initiative is called that something is about to happen but he doesn't necessarily know what. So yes, he can dodge. He can run away as fast as he can. He can cast darkness on the party to help prevent them from being seen. Anything he wants to do. But just because he has alert doesn't mean he knows immediately where the hidden enemy is at.

No, it is not spiderman's spider sense. Not at all. You have bonuses for certain things and you can't be affected a specific condition. A pc with alert can't immediately tell when combat begins or initiative is rolled. They are simply not affected by surprise should there be cause for it to be applied. Your reasoning is completely flawed. You're also mixing your responses. I've never said they would know where the enemy is. However the rules make it clear that unless you're hidden, creatures know where you are within the range of their senses. Attacking makes you lose hidden on a hit or a miss. So Mr. Sniper in his clock tower is immediately revealed when he attacks from hidden to the party. Houserule of course for situations where that doesn't make sense, that's your prerogative as the DM.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nocatem, let's look without alert.

Players don't see any monsters. Initiative is called. Players know a monster is about to attack. Players are surprised. Thus even though the players know a monster is about to attack due to the initiative roll they can not act on that knowledge due to surprise.

Thus in actual game play:
1. Monster gets attack off before players do anything.
2. Regular combat starts afterwards as normal.

Not sure where the problem is?

 

[BoldItalic]

There is a difference between surprising players and surprising their PCs.

Think about it.

 

[FrogReaver]

There is a difference between surprising players and surprising their PCs.

Think about it.

Thank you. You summed up my reasoning in about 1 sentence!

 

[Flamestrike]

If I was talking to an Ogre or an NPC and the DM said 'he attacks you' and then resolved it 'outside' of the combat sequence and initiative order, denying the player a chance to do anything about it, I would be pretty peeved. I mean, I'd roll with it and all, but unless there is a damn good reason for doing it, its not my cup of tea.

Its just a massive deviation from the rules for no good reason other than DM whimsy.

The switch from [narrative time] to [combat sequence] isnt noticible by the characters. Its how the game resolves hostile acts. You roll initiative to determine if actors in the combat can react in time to a hostile stimuli.

The combat sequence isnt triggered by you getting stuck by the Ogre. Its triggered by the Ogre deciding to attack in the first place.

As soon as combat starts [but before any actions are resolved] the combat sequence [initiative, surprise etc] starts. You resolve combat actions inside of combat.

I have no idea how so many DMs dont understand this.

 

[BoldItalic]

Thank you. You summed up my reasoning in about 1 sentence!

Nope. Think about it some more.

 

[BoldItalic]

If I was talking to an Ogre or an NPC and the DM said 'he attacks you' and then resolved it 'outside' of the combat sequence and initiative order, denying the player a chance to do anything about it, I would be pretty peeved. I mean, I'd roll with it and all, but unless there is a damn good reason for doing it, its not my cup of tea.

Its just a massive deviation from the rules for no good reason other than DM whimsy.

I agree.

The switch from [narrative time] to [combat sequence] isnt noticible by the characters. Its how the game resolves hostile acts. You roll initiative to determine if actors in the combat can react in time to a hostile stimuli.

The combat sequence isnt triggered by you getting stuck by the Ogre. Its triggered by the Ogre deciding to attack in the first place.

I agree.

As soon as combat starts [but before any actions are resolved] the combat sequence [initiative, surprise etc] starts. You resolve combat actions inside of combat.

I agree.

I have no idea how so many DMs dont understand this.

It could be because they delight in playing gotcha! and don't want the game to be fair. It's not that they don't understand, it's that they find the printed rules inconvenient and want the reassurance that (some) other people think like them.

 

[BoldItalic]

A problem that DMs create for themselves if they try to strike at the PCs before rolling initiative, is that the players are not (yet) bound by combat turns. They can do anything they like by way of a response, including thwarting the attack or obviating the situation entirely.

DM: Suddenly, a monster crashes through the floor and bites you. Take 24 damage.
Player1: We kill the monsters and take all their stuff, heal up and move on.
Player2: We are travelling at fast pace. What's round the next corner?
DM: Hold on ...

Surprising the players as a dramatic effect can be fun for everyone. 'Surprise', as applied to PCs, has no effect whatever except in the first round of combat. And until combat is declared and initiative is rolled, there are no rounds. Outside of combat, the players are not limited to taking actions in turns. And monsters do not get turns either. They can't take the actions listed in their stat blocks. They can't take attack actions. They can't roll to hit. They can't inflict damage.

That's how it is in 5e. If you want your monsters to hurt the PCs, you have to declare combat first.

If you really want to play evil DMs, use traps.

 

[Noctem]

I think the easiest solution is to have player buy in. I don't just force players to follow houserules. I present it to them, explain why I would like to use it and then we vote on them as a group. Now to address some of the posts:

If I was talking to an Ogre or an NPC and the DM said 'he attacks you' and then resolved it 'outside' of the combat sequence and initiative order, denying the player a chance to do anything about it, I would be pretty peeved. I mean, I'd roll with it and all, but unless there is a damn good reason for doing it, its not my cup of tea.

Again, player buy-in helps. This is a situation for the DM to see if the party had noticed the Ogre as a threat or not. Essentially, the Ogre would get a single attack to prompt combat, or I could simply narrate that the Ogre raises his club menacingly if attacking directly isn't warranted. There's many ways to go about this. But say the Ogre attacks right a once the attack is resolved, I would ask everyone to roll initiative. Then based on what was happening when the Ogre attacked, I would assign surprise.

Its just a massive deviation from the rules for no good reason other than DM whimsy.

Agree to disagree. I've been in situations multiple times where the rules as written don't make any sense for the scenario being played out at the table. I've adopted to using this houserule, with the consent of the players, ever since in order to FIX the problems with how this functions in 5e. So although you may not have an issue, or rather perhaps you found ways to glaze over them, I have and frankly that's the only thing I really care about.

The switch from [narrative time] to [combat sequence] isnt noticible by the characters. Its how the game resolves hostile acts. You roll initiative to determine if actors in the combat can react in time to a hostile stimuli.

More or less sure. A hostile act doesn't always prompt combat and combat doesn't always come from a hostile act. Be careful with your paint brush.

The combat sequence isnt triggered by you getting stuck by the Ogre. Its triggered by the Ogre deciding to attack in the first place.

That's one way to do it, sure. However, as explained, this can cause multiple problems that I've decided aren't worth dealing with at my table.

As soon as combat starts [but before any actions are resolved] the combat sequence [initiative, surprise etc] starts. You resolve combat actions inside of combat.

That is how the rules seem to indicate it should be done and how the devs have indicated RAI to be.

I have no idea how so many DMs dont understand this.

We do understand, we just don't like the multiple problems that this can create, or at least that's how it is in my case. I don't see value in creating problems or confusion by following the rules when I can just have a simple houserule which solves all of them.

 

[Noctem]

It could be because they delight in playing gotcha! and don't want the game to be fair. It's not that they don't understand, it's that they find the printed rules inconvenient and want the reassurance that (some) other people think like them.

I really don't think there's a need to post this kind of stuff. I'm not playing gotcha with the players, this is not a one-sided houserule, it's voted on by everyone playing. This kind of post though does nothing to continue the discussion in a positive tone so I would ask that you knock it off.