Alignment myths?

delericho

Legend
Dykstrav said:
There's also a chaotic evil magician mentioned. A chaotic evil magician can sit around in a tavern and enjoy a mug of ale and a game of darts like everyone else, he doesn't have to only come to the village to lob fireballs into the nearest huts. The example cites how even a chaotic evil character can be a peaceful, productive member of society (although he'd be known as mean, churlish, and certainly wouldn't be popular with the villagers).

See, this last statement I disagree with. I see no reason why the Chaotic Evil character can't be friendly, approachable, and well-liked. That he's also actively engaged in consorting with demons, torturing kittens in his secret lab, and generally trying to take over the world does nothing to preclude this... the villagers may well not know, being none too keen to pry into the affairs of the "aged wizard in the tower".
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
#1 myth that gets under my skin about alignment: that alignment cannot model complex actions and motivations.

Of course it can. Alignment is a description of general recent tendancy according to certain standards. It's a category, not a birthplace.

The intention: what did the person intend the act to acomplish? (Of all, this is holds the least importance, say give it 1 point.)

The act: What did the person do? (This is the most important, 3 points)

The aftermath: What did the person learn? (This is almost as important as the act itself, 2 points.)

As I see it (and others certainly can disagree), a good person can have good intentions yet commit an evil act (1 point of good, 3 points of evil). That makes their behaviour slightly evil. What makes or breaks them is what they do afterwards.

If they say, "Meh. The ends justify the means," then they've shown they've made a decision to be evil, and begin the alignment slide. (1 point of good, 5 points of evil.) If they say, "I didn't mean for that to happen, I'll learn from this and not do it again," then they can hold on to their good alignment... depending on what they do from then on. (3 points to good, 3 points to evil.)

Doing evil with the best of intentions doesn't make you evil (in my books)... but if you don't learn the right lessons from it, you're on the way down.

Y'know, I've never really thought about it like that, but I think this is the way I've always played alignment. It's what you do, what you feel about that, and why you did it. Being some sort of psychological misanthrope doesn't erase the actions you do and the fact that you intend to continue doing them.
 

Dr. Harry

First Post
Glyfair said:
What do you feel are the biggest alignment myths?

"If you have a personal code, that makes you lawful"

The way that this is often treated, especially in threads about "What alignment is [favorite book/movie/comic/etc. charater]?" I'd provide a couple of example that have set me off, but this thread is so darn polite for an alignment discussion, I'd hate to be the one that ruined it.

Interesting that it is the alignment threads that seem to trigger alignment infractions ... :)
 

Psion

Adventurer
Hussar said:
One of the biggest myths that I see in alignment discussions is that intention has any bearing on the determination of alignment.

I disagree. Elsewise accidents/unintended consequences would bear on your alignment. All bringing about the death of other sentients would be evil. A tree falling on a kid would be evil. A doctor who kills a patient while trying to save him would be evil.

If what you are getting at is that thinking nice thoughts and not acting on them don't count, I would agree. But ultimately, you can't judge an action as good or evil separate from the intent for which it was initiated.
 
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sckeener

First Post
frankthedm said:
I like that system, but I also feel one should have to have an allegiance to use alignment descriptor spells and receive benefit of Holy / Unholy weapons. I like the idea of the Allegiance system, but I also am big on the idea of one must “Stand Up and be Counted”. If one wants to be uninvolved between the battle of Good and Evil, so be it. But not getting involved should also mean losing out on some things.

of course....and then I can also include all sorts of allegiance weapons that penalize ya when you are the opposite allegiance.

So far I am enjoying the swap...it does make some things much weaker... protection from evil being a simple example.
 

Hussar said:
One of the biggest myths that I see in alignment discussions is that intention has any bearing on the determination of alignment.

Well, okay, the response to this has been covered adequately. :)

I like seeing Neutrality as two versions: "active" and "passive." Passive neutrality describes the disinterested or the noncommital.

Active neutrality, on the other hand, believes in the balance between the forces on the axis.

Someone who is passively Neutral Good believes in "Good by any means." Law and Chaos are, at best, irrelevant or, at worst, distractors from, True Goodness.

Someone who is actively Neutral Good believes "When Law and Chaos are balanced, the most Good may be done." If you slip too far to one side or the other, you actually degrade the ability for Good to prosper.

Then, of course, there's Lawful = Law-abiding.
 
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Slife

First Post
That "protecting the balance" is TN.

I can't think of any reasons to "protect the balance" that couldn't better be categorized as NG, NE, LN, or CN.
 

Felix

Explorer
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
One I never liked: Chaotic Neutral is an excuse to do anything you want.
That 2e PHB description of Chaotic Neutral continues to be the cause of more Chaotic alignment problems than any other source.

BAD 2e ADnD DESCRIPTION! BAD! NO BONE FOR YOU!
 

Celebrim

Legend
1) "Lawful Good is more good than Nuetral Good"

This, and its counter part "Chaotic Evil is more evil than Nuetral Evil" is the most common falacy in the game. Lawful good is the philosophy that seeks two goals, good and order. Invariably it must sacrifice some devotion to good to maintain its devotion to order. Nuetral good is the most good because it always has goodness as its highest goal.

What is true is that lawful good people believe that they are more good than nuetral good ones.

2) Everyone knows their own alignment

This myth is subtle because its almost never stated explicitly. But in fact, it would be bizarre if everyone knew their own alignment. What's more likely is that a large majority of all people believe that they are good and describe thier own beliefs as good, and sincerely believe that what they believe is true goodness. A lawful neutral sincerely believes himself to be a good person and knows he is a good person because he has honor, obeys the law, dispenses justice, respects his betters and deals fairly with his inferiors, opposes disorder, promotes the general weal and strength of society, and otherwise does all the things which to him are the sum total of what being good is all about. Anyone that doesn't do these things, must not be 'good' regardless what they say about themselves and in fact anyone who does the opposite (chaotic neutral) must in fact be evil.

In other words, a decent sized chunk of people will always orient the alignment chart so that they are at the top. Conversely, many people who doubt their own goodness, will because they are sincerely good and humble and self-critical and percieve thier own failings (and knowing what true righteousness is magnify these failing in thier own eyes) will believe that they are in fact not worthy of being called 'good'.

This is in my opinion largely what is responcible for the depth of confusion regarding what the different alignments mean. Different people will have different definitions based on thier own personal beliefs. For example, a lawful neutral might well - when describing lawful good or nuetral good - ascribe to those alignments the beliefs of lawful neutral, and when describing neutral evil ascribe to that the beliefs and traits of chaotic neutral. In other words, it is difficult to be objective when describing moral systems.

3) "I play evil characters because evil means you can do whatever you want."

This is sort of the opposite tack of #2. People with this take on the alignment system believe that good is stiltifying and rigid and oppressive because they associate the order with goodness. Naturally, they percieve that evil must be the opposite - liberating, self-empowering, and so forth.

In fact, evil characters are just as 'shackled' to thier convictions as good characters and if anything more so. Evil is good's antithesis, not merely its opposite. Just as good characters cannot choose to not do good when it suits them and long remain good, evil characters cannot choose to not do evil when it suits them and long remain evil. Evil means doing evil even when it doesn't make sense to do evil. If you don't do evil because its in your self-interest to not do evil, then you are not really any different than the one that doesn't do good because its not in thier self-interest to do good. If self-interest is your motivation, you are much more likely to be chaotic neutral than neutral evil. That doesn't mean an evil character can't do good intentionally or unintentionally, but no more often than a good person can do evil. Which brings us to the next most common myth.

4) People of an alignment always follow the dictates of thier alignment.

The only people for which that makes any sense are those whose philosophy is neutral apathy and who don't have any dictates to follow. For everyone else, they are going to stray and fail and otherwise not resemble a paragon of what they claim to believe. Only people with very high wisdom scores will have the discernment and will to not only know what is 'right' according to what they believe, but knowing what is 'right' to act on that conviction.

5) "True Nuetral is the rarest of all alignments"

This is actually from the 1st edition PH, so it counts as one of EGG's myths. It might be true if the only sort of True Nuetral was the aesthetic highly philosophical kind that believes in balance, harmony, and moderation as the result of a particular intellectual process. But the vast majority of neutrals don't have an intellectual conviction. Instead they arrive at thier beliefs through a sort of philosophical apathy. They don't care, or they don't think about it, or they are too busy surviving, living, or enjoying themselves to worry about it. They aren't particularly trying to be anything, and so they fall on the middle of the bell curve by accident or default more than design. 'Everything in moderation' is very much an everyman definition of 'good', even if they themselves don't realize it. I'd be terribly surprised if True Nuetral wasn't in fact the most common alignment among humans. EGG's 'seekers of balance' represent the upper intellectual ranks of true nuetrals - people who have to justify to themselves why they are behaving in this way - and even that isn't that unusual of a belief system.

6) Alignment defines your personality.

This is one of the most annoying ones for me because it so misses the point. Yes, certain alignments are more likely to attract people of particular personalities than others, but by no means does having a particular personality define a characters alignment any more than a alignment defines a personality. Not only can you have a dour taciturn person of any alignment, or a shy or gregarious person of any alignment, but you can have a miserly greedy person of any alignment whatsoever. Now granted, a miserly greedy NG is more likely to part with his coin in extremis of his neighbor's need than a miserly chaotic neutral, but the same feelings and urges can drive them both. And there is every chance that a generous CN gives more money away than a miserly nuetral good (but there might be worlds of difference between the amount of concern for thier fellows and compassion they are actually showing when they do it).

A personality is far to complex to model with any combination of wisdom, intelligence, charisma scores and alignments. The combination might be very suggestive of certain things, but it doesn't impose a whole lot.

7) Good aligned people never fight with each other.

Good aligned people find just as likely to find cause to argue about and even (if they are of a martial bent, as most good aligned D&D characters are) go to war over things as any other aligment. Nothing prevents two lawful good people with a difference of opinion from fighting to the death over something if each has a different take on it and each feels duty compels them to a mutually exclusive choice.

If we are to believe in a cosmology in which law is as far from chaos as evil is from good (and I don't, but most alignment maps represent it this way), then we must believe that an Archon finds an Eladrin every bit as distasteful and worthy of destruction (or alliance) as an Devil. Why should a lawful good find chaos more pardonable than evil?

In the default cosmology, a blood war in the heavens makes as much sense as a blood war in the hells.

(This is one of several reasons I prefer to ignore the default cosmology.)
 

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